December Balance Preview

I hadn't pay attention on this point but USF FRP is or isn't affected by FRP changes? The patch note does not mention it.

I don't think so.

Thats true but who is going to buy ELE or JT now that they are sooo UP and ISU is OP after buff

ISU buff make ISU better vs this heavy TD or vs infatry and mediums ? How ele pop cap nerf make ele worse vs ISU ? How ISU price change make ISU better vs ele ? its can be spammed ? How JT pop cap nerf and range nerf make its worse vs ISU ? Its still same will be, JT still outrange ISU. Ele still better with penetrate adn damage.

ISU buff make ISU better vs this heavy TD or vs infatry and mediums ? How ele pop cap nerf make ele worse vs ISU ? How ISU price change make ISU better vs ele ? its can be spammed ? How JT pop cap nerf and range nerf make its worse vs ISU ? Its still same will be, JT still outrange ISU. Ele still better with penetrate adn damage.

Yes but ISU has very bad movement so it will take it forever to get out of range of ISU. + JT cant move and fire

Yes but ISU has very bad movement so it will take it forever to get out of range of ISU. + JT cant move and fire

Its not last version of patch, if he will be to lsow, than can back ability for speed. But be realistick , su things must be slow with such big range.

When allies get 1 TD you can get 2 stugs, 2 stugs trade every allies TD, coz thay cannot get 2 of them early then you get 2 stugs, also stug popcap, 4 sec reload, that will be like 3 in vet 3.
STug have 560 hp. Also vs slow unit, with slow turret, need somthing more then front attack like husars.I can say same vanilla story, vet 5 JP will be beat FF/su-85/jackson, with com panther buff and docs ability she will be outrange them and kill with 2 shoots. I think FF need a little fix, 260 damage in vet 3 looks not good now.

Leave HEAT and command panther out of this. Mark target is equally bad.

Sweeper argument, was about you double standarts, in one example you heavy TD that covered by mines was outplayed with sweeeper and tanks, in another, you panther spam lose vs mines.

That was my point. Why are are heavy tds and flanks and micro being dumbed down just so allied tanks can just blindly rush from the front and get around and kill. Use smoke, sweepers, flanks to actually out play your opponet. Not just charge in and ram for engine damage. Map issues are map issues.

I can agree and not, i dont play with ele adn only problem as 2 ostheer we have vs crocodile combo with FF. Dont forget about skill planes. Ele is not so broken like JT, but ele doc with dive bomb make its terrible, coz dive bomb AOE is terrible wihtout flayers. Pathing kills more tanks in this game then AT guns nd TD. Problem with TD wars can be in vision, who get 1 shoot, make last. So allies with t-70 recon mode looks better with it.
Wait, ostheer have stugs taht are good for trades, pacs, shreks, docs ability, to counter all this stuff need a lot pop cap and recourses. Big problem imo are play with ostheer vs sniper/ penals combo coz now you cannot trade 222 into sniper, but must play like goplits, pushing its with 222/flame HT slowly, step byt step.

and soviets have Su76s which are even better than stugs due to lower tech tier and have higher pen, zis guns mark target etc. No one said Stuka CAS was balanced

If TD get flanked imo its not problem of units, its or snowball or hero/stupid rush that mean same sometimes. Penetretion is argument, but vet buffs, armor, target size, reload mean too somthing. I agree about crew andrepeir, but not for all, OKW mehanized. All TD can be flanked, FF reload, slow speed and slow turret make him good target for flank, he have more chance to survive, but i think its must be a different playstyle with TD with turret adn wihtout. Its like play with cons and penals. From my experience, all that can save jackson when he flanked, its ground shoots and zooks, if its dont help he will be dead, like JP, su85 or FF.......

Thing with FFs is if they get flanked it's by a panther or panzer 4. Panzer 4 loses unless it gets 1st shot off and can get up close. Panthers RoF is just as bad as the FFs.

Rifles can also save jacksons with snares. And more importantly now is they'll have mines. but given your opponet has sweepers that shouldn't mean much.

But now, in live version for years stug > jackson.

Not just because of raw stats. The StuG also had target weakpoint for a stun. And just because a unit dominated for years doesn't mean you should buff the victim to abuse the former bully. That's like saying we should buff panthers to pre nerf comet levels so they can have their reign of terror.

Sorry if I don't clap to the shitposting
1) it's not that mg's are "CRAZY HURR DURR", the mg's are THE ONLY AI panther has, while Comet can ACTUALLY deal with infantry.
Addiotionally you need to PAY munitions for that dps, while the mg dps is minimal compared to other mg dps (like 50cal pintle or t34 mg's).
And all mg's need to face target to inflict the dps (that get mostly negated by craters at this stage of the game).

2) I'm so sorry allies TD doesn't instapen, really..the lowest dps TD, which happens to be the most expensive, in the whole game, can capitalize on the only thing it has decent, armor, trading so bad with shit accuracy, shit rof, shit damage..that is never ever seen in competitive...it's a shame, nerf moar.

3) It's not only a rof problem, is an accuracy problem, panther misses, and has a low rof, so mention that as result panther has less dps than a su76m in your desperate rant over "the bleed of allies TD".

1. I've used both Comets and Panthers against infantry, and I would take a pintle mounted MG over the comets main gun for damage. Comet is incredibly unreliable against infantry(its nice when it hits though).

Unless I'm wrong, all tanks have 2 "hull" mg's that fire, Some tanks can be upgraded to a third (Ostheer or okw). Without upgrading to a third the following dps is

Comet - 12
T-34/76 - 16
Panther(ost) - 18

Even without the third it does more, add that on and you get 32 dps. Saying "But you have to pay for it!" isn't an argument, all factions have to pay for things. I also hope you aim your tank forward so it fires all of it's MG's, that's kind of the point.

2. You are misconstruing my argument, the point is that you forced your opponent to respond by building a tank detterent, you have inflicted a significant blow to him in that regard. Being only able to "react" to an enemy tank puts you on the backfoot. It's why using/losing an AT gun against a tank can mean GG.

3. Low rate of fire is correlated with it's reload (Practically means the damn thing fires once every 8 seconds) on the other hand, it means you will always penetrate thanks to its high pen and low allied armor. I can see it missing, tanks miss, it's the whole "press stop and fire your tank" strategy most armor have to use. I'd have to see if it misses moreso then other tanks using the stop tactic.

The Stug is supposed to fill that role. It's cheap, has reliable DPS and generally trades very well.

So what is the panthers role then?

Not AI, thats brumbar and (sniggers) ostwind and luchs.
Not AT or counter TD, thats elephant, stug and jp4.
Generalist? Too shitty AI, too expensive to dive, too expensive to get.

Better get brumbar, good AoE (so it can punish blobs) and it's AT capabiltieis are triple that of whatever the panther does to infantry.
Same goes for okw p4.

Why should you build a panther?

"Why should you build a panther?"

This guy gets it..

Leave HEAT and command panther out of this. Mark target is equally bad.



That was my point. Why are are heavy tds and flanks and micro being dumbed down just so allied tanks can just blindly rush from the front and get around and kill. Use smoke, sweepers, flanks to actually out play your opponet. Not just charge in and ram for engine damage. Map issues are map issues.

and soviets have Su76s which are even better than stugs due to lower tech tier and have higher pen, zis guns mark target etc. No one said Stuka CAS was balanced

Thing with FFs is if they get flanked it's by a panther or panzer 4. Panzer 4 loses unless it gets 1st shot off and can get up close. Panthers RoF is just as bad as the FFs.

Rifles can also save jacksons with snares. And more importantly now is they'll have mines. but given your opponet has sweepers that shouldn't mean much.


Not just because of raw stats. The StuG also had target weakpoint for a stun. And just because a unit dominated for years doesn't mean you should buff the victim to abuse the former bully. That's like saying we should buff panthers to pre nerf comet levels so they can have their reign of terror.

In september adn october i have 2 games where com panther was vet 4 and with JP just outrange all another TD, i dont think that its are fine, coz JP have camo, + camo shoot buff.

We both know, that heavy TD cannot be alone, you can kill JT, but lost 4 t34, that means soviet lose more MP and fuel, that will be mean slowly lose economic war, coz MP in late game are more important.

I think p4 and panther are not good choise to flank, its not t-34-76 adn not old cromwel with his price and speed.

I agree with this (a unit dominated for years doesn't mean you should buff the victim to abuse the former bully), but you agree that now stug vs jackson is better ? I think some part of community are interested to make balance, not revenge.

So what is the panthers role then?

Not AI, thats brumbar and (sniggers) ostwind and luchs.
Not AT or counter TD, thats elephant, stug and jp4.
Generalist? Too shitty AI, too expensive to dive, too expensive to get.

Better get brumbar, good AoE (so it can punish blobs) and it's AT capabiltieis are triple that of whatever the panther does to infantry.
Same goes for okw p4.

Why should you build a panther?

Anti-heavy. Anti-advanced medium, or for maps that it's not possible to use a Stug.

Anti-heavy.

Elephant, stug and jp4. Can double up on the latter two if needed. Or get your own heavy (tiger/King Tiger).

Anti-advanced medium.

Same as above.

or for maps that it's not possible to use a Stug.

Map depandent at best, schrecks, paks/raks or role filled by KT/ST/p4/tiger at worst.

Cost effectiveness of call-in/ stugs and jp4 vs panther not included in the equation.
Effectiveness of AoE based generalist is included in that they offer more than the panther ever could.

Anti-heavy. Anti-advanced medium, or for maps that it's not possible to use a Stug.

Then why should it have a pop 18 when the heavy have pop 19 (KV-2,IS-2) Pershing pop of 16

while Su-85 with pop 12 can do the same?

Then why should it have a pop 18 when the heavy have pop 19 (KV-2,IS-2) Pershing pop of 16

while Su-85 with pop 12 can do the same?

Maybe coz its have more HP and armor and can hold shoots and armor ? IF you whanna write that thay must make low popcap for is-2 adn kv-2 i dont agree with you.

In september adn october i have 2 games where com panther was vet 4 and with JP just outrange all another TD, i dont think that its are fine, coz JP have camo, + camo shoot buff.

We both know, that heavy TD cannot be alone, you can kill JT, but lost 4 t34, that means soviet lose more MP and fuel, that will be mean slowly lose economic war, coz MP in late game are more important.

I think p4 and panther are not good choise to flank, its not t-34-76 adn not old cromwel with his price and speed.

I agree with this (a unit dominated for years doesn't mean you should buff the victim to abuse the former bully), but you agree that now stug vs jackson is better ? I think some part of community are interested to make balance, not revenge.

JP4 has same range as all allied TDs. Don't know where the extra range was coming from.

Yup always support heavies. And i agree, but just 1 T34 saved means that it's worth the economic investment, fuel wise at least. But in the next patch the JT will probably be able to kill 1 T34, maybe. most definatly not 2+. So you're relying on paks and raks mainly for their defence. For now though I'm gonna just concede this argument. Yes 2 shots it highly lethal as they are now, but 3 shots is going to put them where they'll be rarely used except in certain situations.

So what do you flank with?

Currently for cost/output ratio the StuG. but the StuG is overperforming in its own right, doesn't mean we should buff everything to OP levels.

JP4 has same range as all allied TDs. Don't know where the extra range was coming from.

Yup always support heavies. And i agree, but just 1 T34 saved means that it's worth the economic investment, fuel wise at least. But in the next patch the JT will probably be able to kill 1 T34, maybe. most definatly not 2+. So you're relying on paks and raks mainly for their defence. For now though I'm gonna just concede this argument. Yes 2 shots it highly lethal as they are now, but 3 shots is going to put them where they'll be rarely used except in certain situations.

So what do you flank with?

Currently for cost/output ratio the StuG. but the StuG is overperforming in its own right, doesn't mean we should buff everything to OP levels.

I talk about com panther aura range buff.

Its combiantion with units, tank + AT or shrek or p4 with stug, somthing like this, few times it was p4 spam with shrek + doc ability. Its depends from waht units build opponents and map, if axis have ele or JT why thay need flank ? Just wait allies push and counter play.

IMO this is the worst patch ever. Lelic please continue developing AoE4 and dont mess it with that game.

Wehrmacht needs a late game infantry unit with the T4 building. Perhaps re-skin obers?

I talk about com panther aura range buff.

Its combiantion with units, tank + AT or shrek or p4 with stug, somthing like this, few times it was p4 spam with shrek + doc ability. Its depends from waht units build opponents and map, if axis have ele or JT why thay need flank ? Just wait allies push and counter play.

What if you get a map where the Elephant and JT are not good?

640! Hp Jackson AND Elephant JT nerf monkaOMEGA

I admittedly been out of it for a bit but i remember allies being utterly batshit overpowered in every mode. This patch seems to confirm that hasn’t changed and axis will continue to be pretty aids to play.
allies are entirely too much of a vacation all around...Jackson 640 hp?? Hello? uhh that thing microed by anyone with a brain will simply not die. Especially when the panther, JT, AND ELEPHANT all get the nerf bat. Makes wins unsatisfying, unrewarding...like beating on a dying infant.
game is unplayable competitively and any sort of long term enjoyment is lost when you can only really enjoy one side. Faction selection will be gg

mod team does do a good job on bug fixes and QOL

What if you get a map where the Elephant and JT are not good?

Then don't use those commanders. It's not like you are forced to use them 24/7.