December Balance Preview

Dude, I'm literally proposing Ostheer Panther buffs for more than a year. I'm doing so in this very thread. It's beyond me how you didn't notice a post from me regarding the topic.

My usual playstyle revolves around Tier 3 + Tigers... I don't know why you make things up that I spam Panthers.

I read you thread about panther, i even write there i think. But what if you mistake with it ?
I remember another in 2013.

Ostheer panther has (always had) two issues:

It's price/timing is way out of whack with the rest of the factions.
It is either too inaccurate on the move, or too inaccurate on the move.

The panther also has another issue: the stug, pak40 and schrecks in general. If the panther was to be adjusted and t4 cost brought down, then there is still the issue that it fills a role which already superbly covered. Ost has never been lacking for at within the first 3 tiers. Everything and anything can be fought without ever going for a panther and that won't change. The panther would have to be made quite ridiculous to make it desirable, where some of the problems lie.

I think the panther could have the potential to work in the way it is in the patch, if t4 was cheaper, then however, the brumbar would be too easily attainable for how strong it currently is. The panzerwerfer would profit from a t4 price reduction.
However the issue then is also the matchup against soviets which, like ost, have to go t3 first. Depending on the new cost of ost t4 a quite significant problem could arise since there are no proper counters to a panther in the first 3 tiers and even the su85 is not a very reliable one either. So I can understand the hesitation by the balance team to go with what some are suggesting. Superficially it seems an easy fix, but that's only if looked at it superficially.

And largely because of this, in the context of Soviets v Ostheer, the Ostheer panther actually functions as intended. In the extraordinarily rare occasions of large teamgames of EFA only factions, Ostheer can and certainly will snowball into a swarm of panthers. But once USF or UKF (or an OKW teammate) enters the picture into those teamgames, that dynamic goes completely out the window.

In the case of a pure soviet match, it is also quite difficult to counter panthers for soviets. The reason why it does not work against brits is the allied team knows the panther is coming (in 2v2 it is in many cases) and gets out a tank destroyer rather than a medium tank to have the counter ready. This already is an indicator that it works once it is on the field, it's just the getting it there.

The changes to repair that are being proposed don't address ostheer pioneers or USF tank crews. This is suspect. Removing the ostheer panther's extra armor at vet 2, which was the only rule of thumb you could rely on (Just get to vet 2, then your panther can do things.) doesn't help the landscape either.

The changes tone down repair speeds of the other factions closer to ost and soviet levels, which is a good thing in my book. There are also no changes to soviet repairs, so there does not seem to be a bias

To my knowledge the panther has the highest armour value of any non-doctrinal tank in the game. It is by no means reliant on attaining vet 2 to "do things", if it wasn't doing things it's hard to imagine it would ever hit vet2 . If the game files in the mod tools are not severely outdated it has even 20 more armour than a tiger and at 800 hp the highest amount of health of any non-doctrinal tank as well. (please keep in mind that it might be that the game files in the mod tools are outdated, personally I didn't expect the panther to have more health than any other medium tank)

@Miragefla and Smith: is there any word on when we can trial the new changes that you could share with us?

Invest in PV shares cause this will be Penal 2.0 debacle. Also Jacksons.

Anyway: i don't have the calculator at hand but is the DPS from Conscripts equal as it's now meaning that it's an overall nerf in the early/opening game?
80/16 > 5 shots
80/12 > 7 shots
I guess this get's offset by the other buffs.

RET mines: how do they work? They need 3 to crit ? Is there a damage/crit cap ? IIRC these were really buggy.

Trenches: increased size on UKF trench ?

Invest in PV shares cause this will be Penal 2.0 debacle. Also Jacksons.

Anyway: i don't have the calculator at hand but is the DPS from Conscripts equal as it's now meaning that it's an overall nerf in the early/opening game?
80/16 > 5 shots
80/12 > 7 shots
I guess this get's offset by the other buffs.

RET mines: how do they work? They need 3 to crit ? Is there a damage/crit cap ? IIRC these were really buggy.

Trenches: increased size on UKF trench ?

Conscripts will still suck if they are the same as the FBP mod. And I think they are. Let´s see what happens with the soviet doctrines and ppsh. If they put PPSH in good doctrines then Cons could make sense but if not then I still dont see people using Cons.

Depending on the new cost of ost t4 a quite significant problem could arise since there are no proper counters to a panther in the first 3 tiers and even the su85 is not a very reliable one either.

Su76 has 180 pen IIRC at 60 range which means it has >50% chance to pen at max range. In t3, and for half the fuel cost of a JP4. Not to mention the free barrage. SU85 has no problems penning a panther at max range either.

To my knowledge the panther has the highest armour value of any non-doctrinal tank in the game.

If you're excluding KT then yes.

Love how they're still working on this game.

Some changes I would like to see from mainly playing as USF:

• Allow building close to Fuel/Munition points
  
• LT: Comes with grenades and smoke from the start
  
• RE: Increased received damage Volley Fire removed, price reduction (10-15)
  
• Riflemen: Increased mine laying speed
  
• Mechanized commander M5 instead of M3 with assault engineers, perhaps vehicle crew thompson upgrade instead of recon
  
• WC51 fuel cost reduction(15), increased turning speed and acceleration, shorter embark animation
  
• Revise USF AT gun abilities/veterancy
  
• Low health crits on R&I Pathfinders
  
• Paratroopers Recon commander vet 2 healing ability fix
  
• Sherman: increased mobility, faster HE/AP round changing
  
• Jackson: increased mobility, vet1 AP rounds rework, way too buggy
  

Forgot to buff OKW healing.

I don' think nerfing OKW repair is a good thing, if you include price of the unit and combined price of two other faction's engineers for the same repair rate. Making most expensive repair per unit/repair rate.

Or buff mech HQ repair.

The proper way to micro the Panther is to activate Combat Blitz and make sure you keep moving. It will never miss that way.

I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm actually serious. OKW Panther is 30% more accurate when moving than when it's not moving. That's on top of SU-85+ baseline level accuracy.

...My life is a lie.

The changes tone down repair speeds of the other factions closer to ost and soviet levels, which is a good thing in my book. There are also no changes to soviet repairs, so there does not seem to be a bias

Oh I'm not suggesting any bias. I'm just noting that repair speeds are another disparity that skews how viable (either variant of) the Panther can be, and it may not be taken into account.

To my knowledge the panther has the highest armour value of any non-doctrinal tank in the game. It is by no means reliant on attaining vet 2 to "do things", if it wasn't doing things it's hard to imagine it would ever hit vet2 . If the game files in the mod tools are not severely outdated it has even 20 more armour than a tiger and at 800 hp the highest amount of health of any non-doctrinal tank as well. (please keep in mind that it might be that the game files in the mod tools are outdated, personally I didn't expect the panther to have more health than any other medium tank)

Defensively speaking, the panther is fine. It's just unreliable as anything other than a damage sponge. And with the increased armor with vet armor that role was further solidified. That's all I mean. Vet 2 panthers had that much better chance to bounce key shots so that they could stay in the fight long enough to get another round or two off. (Which would likely miss. )

The Tiger, incidentally is another unit that's suffered on Ostheer's roster due to WFA and UKF.

Defensively speaking, the panther is fine. It's just unreliable as anything other than a damage sponge. And with the increased armor with vet armor that role was further solidified. That's all I mean. Vet 2 panthers had that much better chance to bounce key shots so that they could stay in the fight long enough to get another round or two off. (Which would likely miss. )

Well it still keeps the most major buff of veterancy 2 which is + 160 health for a grand total of 960. Yes it needs repairs, but that's 1 more shot to kill from practically all sources.

why not also give cons dp28 upgrade?

^
Then Guard will be more crying in the corner Keepo.

Don't know if anybody else asked this already, but i'm to lazy to read through 172 posts. When is the actual DBP Preview mod coming out?

Don't know if anybody else asked this already, but i'm to lazy to read through 172 posts. When is the actual DBP Preview mod coming out?

No official information given yet

I was going to ask the same, without the mod to test i feel like we are talking to the air.

At this point I'm mostly just frustrated with the forward retreat point changes. They're completely unnecessary and are going to affect OKW the most, as if Allied early game wasn't dominant enough. It's not even the fact that they're nerfing them (although I'ma against nerfing them), but mostly the way in which they're being nerfed. It's so sloppy and heavy-handed. Changing them at all is completely unnecessary, and if anything Soviets and Ostheer should have gotten them. Playing on big maps without them is awful. I can live with everything else in this patch I don't like (namely the repair speed and Panther nerfs) if the FWP changes get scrapped.

Squad formations have been reworked, and you would be amazed at how well those 4-men squads can spread out, or how fast they can exit garrisons.

Not the point, which is that the comet can oneshot a 4 man squads while the panthers mg will do a stream of damage negated by cover, RA en the inability to instagib.

Their AI is leagues apart, calling both generalist is an insult to the comet and a joke for the panther.

Generalist = can mess up infantry really badly.

Specialist = Jackson, SU85, Stug

Finally, your definition of a generalist.
Problem is, the su-76 is a generalist by this definition aswell, same as the m10 TANK destroyer, seeing as they mess up infantry better than the panther ever can and have comparable if not better AT capabilties (investment vs output).

If the panther is a generalist (which it isn't) it comes in a row of vehicle's that don't deserve that definition and still manages to come out last.

Nobody reasonable ever complained why Conscript DPS doesn't equal Grenadier DPS (because grenadiers are squishier), so I don't get why people get so hung up with the Panther.

Because the panther is a huge investment with low AI capabilties, medium AT capabilities due to the inability to reliable finish of a vehicle thanks to poor dps/accuracy on the move?

Yes it's durable as fuck on vet 2.
Yes it's strong in numbers.

Problem is, neither matter in 1vs1 or even 2vs2, where accordingly, you never see it.

What does matter is dps/accuracy on the move( which is nerfed for the okw panther, and slightly buffed for the ost panther but only the dps part) Investment required to get it (huge for ost, not cheap for okw either) and the ability to scare/wipe infantry (The latter of which is non-existent for panthers).

To sum up: panther investment for ost is huge, the AI output is not that of a generalist and the damage output of both variants is not reliable enough.
The small dps increase on the ost panther will not make it anymore used in 1vs1 or 2vs2 and the okw panther just got straight up nerfed.

I see no reason to go panther in the current patch and the proposed changes will not change that for the better.

Anyway: i don't have the calculator at hand but is the DPS from Conscripts equal as it's now meaning that it's an overall nerf in the early/opening game?
80/16 > 5 shots
80/12 > 7 shots
I guess this get's offset by the other buffs.

I wonder how badly it will affect cons vs kubel balance.

Can people please stop with the myth that you don't see Panthers in 1s and 2s?