December Balance Preview

what about the raketen rocket colliding with the terrain and missing shots? will that be fixed?

Are you intentionally just throwing in a piece of bread for pigeons to snack on and then toss another one in?

Why should be agree with illogical panther changes just because rest of patch is still unknown ?


Or else if those changes, which are still not present, will change panther prformance then it is a gross failure from whole dev team. Leaking changes by one by one about a single unit is the worst outcome they (you) may chose. It leaves community asking and unsure.



And yes, I agree with ZombiFrancis, there are always some good and some bad changes in the patch and you have tendency to defend those bad changes no matter what.

Naming:
Guards overnerf,
Maxim overnerf,
Chaning Penals role -> extintion of guards even more,
Stgs to Volks,
FBP Jackson overbuff,
...

Why should anyone in here be even allowed to complain constantly instead of discussing when no one has even played the patch or has the slightest idea how it will pan out? There are about 5 people in this community I think that can accurately forecast the performance impact a change will have in game without playing. Smith, Cruzzi and Miragefla are 3 of them.

Having something "work in progress" means that work is done as development progresses and more feedback is gathered. It is stated pretty clearly in the patch notes that the changes are not final and present a first step.

I am referring to the general discussion not directly to you, but your response kind of encapsulated what irks me about the way these balance discussions devolve and focus on one single thing and even start to become personal.

I think we should all take a deep breath, play the mod when it comes out and then make informed arguments. All concerns regarding the panther have been voiced more than clearly and any further insistent bickering seems pointless.

Having something "work in progress" means that work is done as development progresses and more feedback is gathered. It is stated pretty clearly in the patch notes that the changes are not final and present a first step.

I agree with you that we should all take deep breath and cool our heads, its possibly the best thing we can do.

On the other hand using "we are gathering a feedback" argument against guys who are creating a feedback by discussing the panther looks like this for me:

I agree with you that we should all take deep breath and cool our heads, its possibly the best thing we can do not.

On the other hand using "we are gathering a feedback" argument against guys who are creating a feedback by discussing the panthern looks like this for me:

Lol

And i'm just wondering why people are mad at the balance team regarding the panther.

Oh, apparently, people think it needs higher accuracy on top of:

- mediocre/good AI DPS
- A powerfull main gun which rarely bounces on allied tanks
- Great armor against most allied medium non- tank destroyers
- Amazing speed
- Blitzkrieg for even more amazing speed(and reduced hit chance)
- Ost gets doctrinal smoke
- OKW has excellent veterancy

If anything, the main issue is the teching cost.

And i'm just wondering why people are mad at the balance team regarding the panther.

Oh, apparently, people think it needs higher accuracy on top of:

- mediocre/good AI DPS
- A powerfull main gun which rarely bounces on allied tanks
- Great armor against most allied medium non- tank destroyers
- Amazing speed
- Blitzkrieg for even more amazing speed(and reduced hit chance)
- Ost gets doctrinal smoke
- OKW has excellent veterancy

If anything, the main issue is the teching cost.

People are mad cuz its getting an OVERALL NERF

And i'm just wondering why people are mad at the balance team regarding the panther.

Oh, apparently, people think it needs higher accuracy on top of:

- mediocre/good AI DPS
- A powerfull main gun which rarely bounces on allied tanks
- Great armor against most allied medium non- tank destroyers
- Amazing speed
- Blitzkrieg for even more amazing speed(and reduced hit chance)
- Ost gets doctrinal smoke
- OKW has excellent veterancy

If anything, the main issue is the teching cost.

Holy sh*t, this sounds like a awesome tank worth teching for./s
You will get 2 stugs waaay faster and they will do job waaay better than a panther. And u can easly replace them.

And i'm just wondering why people are mad at the balance team regarding the panther.

Oh, apparently, people think it needs higher accuracy on top of:

- mediocre/good AI DPS
- A powerfull main gun which rarely bounces on allied tanks
- Great armor against most allied medium non- tank destroyers
- Amazing speed
- Blitzkrieg for even more amazing speed(and reduced hit chance)
- Ost gets doctrinal smoke
- OKW has excellent veterancy

If anything, the main issue is the teching cost.

Currently (1s-2s)
OST is forced to go tier 1 for grens/support units, and is forced to go tier 2 for AT to counter light tanks/scout cars.

So in this time, it’s healthy to go tier 3 for stugs/ostwinds, then call in tiger. That way your tier 3 can hold off medium armour horrids.

Now, why are people mad? People are mad on being forced to go stugs every game for the ROF/Range/Accuracy then to top off with a tiger/elephant because going Tier 4 is never worth it/expensive.

Panzwerwerfer is a complete shit unit, and is only built in large team games/troll games. How many do you see vs it’s counterparts.
Brumbar is yes the only good unit out of tier 4 currently that punishes terminator squads that have an abundance of yellow cover.

Now we are left with the panther, something that is soly built for AT purposes, but you can get 2 stugs faster, for the price of 1 panther, and they will “finish” off enemy armour themselves. 2 stugs rushing a FF/Su85 is more reliable than a panther. And they are cheaper to replace.

Panther is required to “chase” enemy armour,, good luck doing so with an atrocious reload time/terrible accuracy on the move. When it comes simply to 85’s/FF’s/Coments/(I could say Jackson’s but I won’t) the panther gets demolished.

All this with the horrids off allied late game infantry/snares capable. vs OST late game infantry, it’s rediculas to remove the HP bonus, and to simply leave the damn unit alone and maybe just maybe add a slight accuracy increase.

You got people like Mr. Smith that is attempting to act like the panthers AI is lethal and worth a valid argument like wtf. There’s book, and then there’s street smart. You’d be surprised on the difference.

OST is a defensive/reaction faction that struggles early game, easily able to become over extended, as well as having it’s valuable support weapons demolished from AOE weapons. And currently and especially with these patch notes there is no reason to go tier 4. Stugs/elephant are better than a panther any day. Nerfing a unit then giving it a half ass buff isn’t going to fool anyone.

Ostheer panther has (always had) two issues:

It's price/timing is way out of whack with the rest of the factions.
It is either too inaccurate on the move, or too inaccurate on the move.

Arguably there's a third factor: Keeping Panthers alive and on the field is a challenge because pioneers take forever to repair them. It's also a challenge to keep pios alive and available to repair. Their flamethrowers and minesweepers are typically in high demand. Especially now if USF is also getting mines. It is worth noting though, that before WFA, this was actually balanced because combat engineers were also scrambling to keep Soviet armor repaired. (Windustry nothwithstanding.)

And largely because of this, in the context of Soviets v Ostheer, the Ostheer panther actually functions as intended. In the extraordinarily rare occasions of large teamgames of EFA only factions, Ostheer can and certainly will snowball into a swarm of panthers. But once USF or UKF (or an OKW teammate) enters the picture into those teamgames, that dynamic goes completely out the window.

The changes to repair that are being proposed don't address ostheer pioneers or USF tank crews. This is suspect. Removing the ostheer panther's extra armor at vet 2, which was the only rule of thumb you could rely on (Just get to vet 2, then your panther can do things.) doesn't help the landscape either.

But this is looking at the Panther holistically, taking into account unit synergies, and most importantly outside of a vacuum, so...

Balance Team: What are your current limitations for this patch? What is on and off the table for this patch? I can't speak for anyone else, but my level of analysis, criticism, and shits given is entirely governed by the degree to which you are willing and able to attempt to solve issues of balance.

...Or are your limitations specifically just the goals laid out in the changelog?

Show Spoiler

* Reinforcement cost (global) increased by 20% while FRP ability is active
* 2 minute cooldown when FRP ability is deactivated

20% increased while active but not while cooldown? With a little micro you can negate this effect (retreat your blob, deactivate FRP, soft retreats next 2 min).

* Activating smoke barrages will now only order one unit at a time.

Fuel and Munition Caches
* MP cost increased from 200 to 250

I wonder if I'll see more often USF bulletins for decreasing caches cost...

Kubelwagon

Is Kubelwagon spam more vital now?

Panther V
...much benefit to spam...
Decreased moving accuracy from 0.65 to 0.5

Yeah, I always spam panther if I want to plow the soil for my crops And now it's even more ground shooting

Le.ig
* Now has access to a smoke barrage ability

One step forward, two steps back, mmmkay.

Unlike the OKW Panther, we feel the OST Panther is more or less in a good spot.

Regular Satchels no longer collide with vehicles.
Targeted Anti-Vehicle Satchels now require the PTRS upgrade.
Targeted Anti-Vehicle Satchels will continue to track targets, even after they have moved out of range.

Molotov upgrade has been merged with the Anti-tank upgrade at the HQ

I survived long enough to witness this. Thank you!

* British Trench now capturable by enemy troops

And by your mates? It doesn't feel right (inb4 osttruppen trenches require a commander pick, brit trenches available by default from your first unit).

No KV-1 buffs

Bugfixes are fine, but does Zis-3 still lose vehicle prioritization after barrage?

Balance Team: What are your current limitations for this patch? What is on and off the table for this patch? I can't speak for anyone else, but my level of analysis, criticism, and shits given is entirely governed by the degree to which you are willing and able to attempt to solve issues of balance.

Governed by those at the top when changes are thrown in regarding various units and items that are up for discussion. However, we're not throwing all changes regarding specific units at once as we want to ease them in before applying/re-applying the buff stick. Note we change change some items revolving around a specific topic, but not all of them and those would need to be approved by the powers that be.

On the Panther, something is on the way which affects the OKW one directly, the Ostheer one indirectly regarding mileage. And possibly another set of change(s) regarding its performance at least up to mid/tank range at 35-40 after those changes get implemented.

Now onto why accuracy was not boosted on the move for the Ostheer variant. It's to avoid the issue of the old Comet where the main thing was just to roll the tank forward and land hits without ever needing to hit the breaks, especially on a heavily armoured vehicle. Technically a certain change that can be found in Revamp that I've been advocating for the next versions would affect its accuracy for the better when moving at close-mid range, but not to the extent of say 0.75 moving accuracy.

I am laughing so hard at the balance modders trying to justify their Ostheer Panther nerfs and getting nowhere.

Legitamately the worst cost effective late game non doctrinal tank in the game and you guys give it an overall nef lol.

I am laughing so hard at the balance modders trying to justify their Ostheer Panther nerfs and getting nowhere.

Legitamately the worst cost effective late game non doctrinal tank in the game and you guys give it an overall nef lol.

What about the 200 fuel OKW panther..
SPAM MOAR...

Just yesterday I found myself with 18 panthers...just to make sure one of them could actually hit the target

You legit haven’t played a single 1v1 game in your life

You legit lost more games than you won with your highest rank being a phone number. Your hilarious.

Your best rank is 2000+, so the noob you face might sit on fuel indeed, but this is something it doesn't happen at higher skill levels.

Also, you are an allies only player, which makes what you said pathetic.

Found them. Hahahah. Easly Ruffled.

Governed by those at the top when changes are thrown in regarding various units and items that are up for discussion. However, we're not throwing all changes regarding specific units at once as we want to ease them in before applying/re-applying the buff stick.

On the Panther, something is on the way which affects the OKW one directly, the Ostheer one indirectly. And possibly another set of change(s) regarding its performance at least up to mid/tank range at 35-40 after those changes get implemented.

So what you're saying is you have no clear idea on what your limitations are, but you're going to do more... stuff. Cryptic stuff. Possibly, but only if you get changes implemented into the actual game first.

Because otherwise I'm not sure how what you wrote responded to what I was asking.

So I guess: Are these the set of changes that have been 'thrown in'? As in: only what is in these patch notes are up for discussion? And of course I know Relic makes the final decision on what happens.

I am laughing so hard at the balance modders trying to justify their Ostheer Panther nerfs and getting nowhere.

Legitamately the worst cost effective late game non doctrinal tank in the game and you guys give it an overall nef lol.

At least its non doc late heavy unit, how many of them have USF and soviet ?

What about the 200 fuel OKW panther..
SPAM MOAR...

Just yesterday I found myself with 18 panthers...just to make sure one of them could actually hit the target

you playercard say that you play it only in dream

you playercard say that you play it only in dream

?
It might be superior Ukrainian education failing you, but this time I can't even traslate from vasa english to proper english.

When the workshop file goes live later in the week i'll give you guys some feedback on this patch.

You know, i dont know play you game in 2013, but i remember how "skill" ostherer players (like Butcher,Sully) spam panthers 24/7, i dont remeber post from them, that panther need fix, all i remember l2p.

Dude, I'm literally proposing Ostheer Panther buffs for more than a year. I'm doing so in this very thread. It's beyond me how you didn't notice a post from me regarding the topic.

My usual playstyle revolves around Tier 3 + Tigers... I don't know why you make things up that I spam Panthers.