Lets talk about Doctrines

I suggest you watch the video where helping Hans loses 3 T-34 to single ST shot...Units and abilities that evaporate things in a game of unit preservation are not good for the game.

Yes I have seen it, he had clear sight of sturmtiger for the whole time and just stood there, how is that unbalanced ?

Goliath, demo all needs to go ? Stuff that wiped was there since start

Allot of units are more cost efficient than Grenadier and since the Grenadiers are used as benchmark they are actually OP.

Penals is another fine example of how a units should NOT be. Too good at all ranges.


No they should not since support weapons has little to do with "relative positioning" for more on the subject you better check the patch notes when "weapon profiles" and "relative positioning" were introduced.

So the fact that riflemen can dominate at mid and close range has nothing to do with the support ost gets ?
I don't really think it would make balanced matchup
The fact that grens need specific positioning is balanced by tier 1.
Grens STILL win over rifle at long range and long mid range.
It's intended for riflemen to be good at a much larger spectrum of ranges tho, it's clear, and I don't see where is the problem as long as usf doesn't have sniper and hmg at min 0

So the fact that riflemen can dominate at mid and close range has nothing to do with the support ost gets ?
I don't really think it would make balanced matchups

Riflemen where on edge of balance (being) because they lucked cost efficient support units (they should probably be toned after the mortar), Yet they where balanced having relative positioning in mind. Read the patch notes.

First off thanks for the response, (or at least liking another response). I have done similar things so far, so hear are my responses.

Replace Relief Infantry with Mobile Defense Ostruppen
The psuedo-defensive ability of Relief Infantry is incredibly clunky to use with the Wehrmacht's 4-man squads. Why not just let the Soviet ability which works better be unique, and allow players to gain Ostruppen squads directly instead of having to pay munitions and manpower (for reinforcing units lost to fuel Relief Infantry) for those mediocre soldiers?

The problem with Ostruppen, is the fact then come a bit late. This is why I have replaced Ostruppen Reserves with regular Ostruppen Dispatch. The usage or over usuage relief infantry is a bit of a trap, for you are receiving weak infantry who need veterancy in order to be effective. Granted this ability needs something changed, I have nerfed it from up to three squad to two squads.

Swap LMG Grenadiers for Assault Grenadiers in German Mechanized 250 Halftack
This is a no-nonsense, straightforward change which will allow assgrens to live in more than one commander. Honestly, why fill the 250 halftrack with basic Wehrmacht infantry? On that note...
Give the 250 Halftrack... something
Manpower cost reduction is a given, but even so, there is little point to this risky doctrinal clowncar. An mg, an upgrade to the 250/7 mortar halftrack, a recon ability, ability to drop panzerschreks, something.

I took another approach to the 250. An empty 250 can be built for 150 manpower much earlier on in ordered so it can some more usage and it can garrison mortars (excluding the 120mm) who can fire out.

Replace Close Air Support Doctrine abilties with their loiter counterparts
I personally felt that this is how CAS should've been balanced. Bigger abilities make munition transfer more relevant, loitering introduces counterplay, and it gets rid of the silly "dodge or be murdered" game which CAS currently presents.

Yeah, think people right now believe loiters are on the OP side hence why I made the Anti Tank Loiter to a strafe variant.

Fold G43 Upgrade Package and Model 24 Stun Grenades into the same ability
Another case of extending rarely-seen abilities together to promote their usage. This would very likely come with an increased munitions cost for the upgrade, but it'd still be interesting. Give Elite Troops the stuka suppression run/fragmentation bombing run or something.

Seeing how my mod is has already swapped G43 and LMG 42 this will not extacty fit in. Additionally, stun grenades are strong enough to be their own doctrinal slot.

Consolidate Vehicle Crew Repair and Repair Stations
Soviets have so many repair options, it's rather silly. Fold, replace, or whatever you like, but at the very least Soviet Industry doesn't need two of them. Give them IL-2 strafing support for a proper munition sink.

I do not know of anyone who uses vehicle crew repairs often. Changing is maybe necessary.

Replace Conscript Repairs with For Mother Russia!
Hell, while we're at it, remove the other widespread repair ability to something more immediately valuable for conscripts, and to make the remaining repair abilities more valuable.

I think Conscript repairs are fine myself.

Add near-instant reinforce time to Rapid Conscription
The instant reinforce time of the British Air Resupply Operation would be a brilliant addition to this rather bland ability. It just makes sense.

This is an interesting idea, maybe with Ostheer's and OKW's Counter Attack as well?

Do SOMETHING to Elite Vehicle Crews
This might be the single most useless ability in the game? 90 munitions to make something you don't ever want to see away from a vehicle half-decent in combat? Make it into a weapon-rack upgrade, make it an automatic upgrade and/or a half-sized upgrade for Rear Echelons, just don't keep it how it is.

I chose with replacing it with Withdraw and Refit

Replace USF Recon Sweep with M10s for Recon Company and Bulldozers for Mechanized Company
This ability is incredibly redundant with the Major, although I do recognize that there are some differences. These two commanders are widely seen as the weakest that USF has right now, and a lot of that comes down to poor late-game presence. Giving them sturdier call-in vehicles can help with this issue. Of course, the Mechanized version could also be replaced by a certain heavy tank...

Currently I have adjusted the Sherman with a dozer upgrade which increases health to all more tankiness.
I chose to change the Recon Support with the Loiter and the Mechanized with Combined Arms

Fold Riflemen Flamers and Riflemen Flares into the same ability
Flares are very rarely used, and this could make way for inserting Riflemen Field Defenses into Rifle Company, which seems rather appropriate and would further diversify defensive options like the Eastern Front changes I proposed.

I actually did something similar. I combined the forward observers and flares for they both provided sight. The Flamer upgrade I moved to Lieutenant tech and replace the directional ability with Riflemen Field Defenses.

Fold Radio Silence and Artillery Flares into the same ability.
Similarly, who uses Radio Silence? Both abilities firing at the same time fit with each other, silently spotting for a slightly sneaky attack. Mostly though, it'd free up an ability slot. I'd suggest HEAT shells or even Wehrmacht's Breakthrough (Encirclement Doctrine) for added 'elite' capabilities.

This could be interesting. Over course it need to be renamed, maybe Silent Operations?

Units lite ST, Avre, Brumbar can simply redesigned.

Instead of wiping units, their damage could go down (240?), become more player friendly (but using this units easier, for instance faster aim/fire) and allow them to provide extra utility instead:

1) Provide suppression to stop blob
2) Do engine damage to units with 800HP and bellow
3) Do extra damage to fortification/emplacement.

I could not think of where Sturmtiger could be fair a balanced with it's style of gameplay so that is why I replaced it with a Brumbar Call in.

With how I changed T4 in my mod so it can be more reasonably accessed, the Brummbärwas in a weird position. The Brummbär is not overpowered.
1. I did not want a third Tech option from teching up for other factions usually do not have access to the Heavier tier and while UKF does, they only have two options.
2. For an anti infantry asset there was already the Ostwind which is quite reliable, as well as the Pwerfer.
3. I have thought putting it back in where the Tiger Ace is as well as some other area for a single heavy call in. (may received a buff for only one at a time call in.) The Tiger Ace can easily be unfair since it is a Vet 3 tiger with a .5 Damage modifier.

AVRE I did resigned to work more like a Brummbär/Sherman (105).

Riflemen where on edge of balance (being) because they lucked cost efficient support units (they should probably be toned after the mortar), Yet they where balanced having relative positioning in mind. Read the patch notes.

The mortar is quite weak in range compared to everything, i do agree that riflemen should be toned down with a 1 upgrade limit like volks and FBP IS, but i think stock rflemen are fine.
Yes, they have been balanced like that, this is why grenadiers will win at mid-long and long range, while evertything from mid to close is riflemen territory, but like riflemen that can deal good damage still at long-mid range, grens dps at mid range isn't bad at all, especially if the riflemen have been lured down a little in hp already.

A stock unit that buff all soviet infantry can prove really problematic. Especially one that can nullify one of the things Ostheer have going for them the HMG-42.

If one want to make conscripts better in late game one can simply allow universal upgrades in each of the soviet buildings.

That would prevent conscripts from blobbing since they would have to spend on teching before becoming effective.

Imo conscript are not as bad as people claim, its the ST VG that are op and make them look bad...

The initial Commissar has a 2 minute deploy time and still needs to get to vet 1 for the Force Retreat ability so Ostheer early MG can still preform fine for a good chunk of time.

STG for Volks I did removed from my mod so now they do have to rely on the veterancy for the late game.


And when for it becomes for grens, I decided I would buff Pioneers to help support grens. Pioneers and Combat Engines were just weak and largely dead units through out the game after all, on a per model bases a Pioneer was weaker than a riflemen at close range while Combat Engies were a 4 man conscript squad. All the other factions had a useful Engineer to aid in the initial and early game.

I suggest you watch the video where helping Hans loses 3 T-34 to single ST shot...Units and abilities that evaporate things in a game of unit preservation are not good for the game.

He deserved that.
If you 'blob' your tanks like that, you deserve what is coming to you

While I am still indifferent on what would be a good alternative when it comes to Soviet Shock Army and NKVD since there a couple suggestion. However, I think my changes OKW's Radio Silence could be interesting and powerful. I have updated the mod to include this so people could play around with it.

Radio Silence
-Renamed to Silent Operations
-30 second duration
-Minimap Icons Removed
-Infantry will move at an increased pace and will be cloaked for the duration

He deserved that.
If you 'blob' your tanks like that, you deserve what is coming to you

That is rather irrelevant, I was simply pointing out that ST can easily still wipe things.

My point remain that these unit are hard to balance as wiping machines and should trade some wiping capability for some utility.

That is rather irrelevant, I was simply pointing out that ST can easily still wipe things.

My point remain that these unit are hard to balance as wiping machines and should trade some wiping capability for some utility.

How is that irrelevant ? You made an example to show the relative opness of such machine, but conviniently ignore that it was a matter of careless play.

If I cap without using mine detector my squad get wiped, so I guess the issue is demo ?
Why water down gameplay like that ? So supposed "pro" can do suchistakes without getting punished ?

How is that irrelevant ? You made an example to show the relative opness of such machine, but conviniently ignore that it was a matter of careless play.

If I cap without using mine detector my squad get wiped, so I guess the issue is demo ?
Why water down gameplay like that ? So supposed "pro" can do suchistakes without getting punished ?

Demos are infact a problem as well, hence why I removed them from my mod.

Demos are suppose to be effective vs blobs but in actuality it is more effective at wiping single squads. Demos in fact promote blobing because since you can not have a mine sweeper every. In the live game, OKW usually only has one sturmpio and not three to cover each vp. So in order to prevent being hit by a demo the player is forced to group his forces to one force. And with the mine sweeper forced to upgraded, upgrades such as flamers and panzershrecks can not be used. When it comes to Ostheer in the live game, they have trouble even fielding a second pio due to the constraint of manpower. Even when they field a second pio, in the live game they are weak and have no impact in the game, especially when they have weaker repairs so they are tie up can not sweep anyways.

Demos are infact a problem as well, hence why I removed them from my mod.

Demos are suppose to be effective vs blobs but in actuality it is more effective at wiping single squads. Demos in fact promote blobing because since you can not have a mine sweeper every. In the live game, OKW usually only has one sturmpio and not three to cover each vp. So in order to prevent being hit by a demo the player is forced to group his forces to one force. And with the mine sweeper forced to upgraded, upgrades such as flamers and panzershrecks can not be used. When it comes to Ostheer in the live game, they have trouble even fielding a second pio due to the constraint of manpower. Even when they field a second pio, in the live game they are weak and have no impact in the game, especially when they have weaker repairs so they are tie up can not sweep anyways.

Then change those accordingly.
As I said, actualt sturmtiger/avre can't one shot wipe squads due to the squad spacing and aoe changes, unless some bad rng or models vunching in tight spaces.
Changes can be made, but turn 345 kg shell in a 38 kg shell is awful just as removing demo.
I could understand it with avre, those shells had a weight of 18 kg...

If demo is a problem than make it require LOS to explode and/or make it unable to explode if there's a sweeper.
If aturmtiger is a problem than increase aoe damage drop off.

Then change those accordingly.
As I said, actualt sturmtiger/avre can't one shot wipe squads due to the squad spacing and aoe changes, unless some bad rng or models vunching in tight spaces.
Changes can be made, but turn 345 kg shell in a 38 kg shell is awful just as removing demo.
I could understand it with avre, those shells had a weight of 18 kg...

If demo is a problem than make it require LOS to explode and/or make it unable to explode if there's a sweeper.
If aturmtiger is a problem than increase aoe damage drop off.

ST will kill any entity with 8 units of impact its the definition of squad wipe machine, the only thing more efficient at squad wipes are off maps...

PLS test the units in cheat mode before continuing.

ST will kill any entity with 8 units of impact its the definition of squad wipe machine, the only thing more efficient at squad wipes are off maps...

PLS test the units in cheat mode before continuing.

Obviously, let's create a lab environment...because in real games infantry squads remain immobile...
With new squad spacing 8 units of impact aren't even a big deal and if you move/retreat your man when im time starts you can avoid any big damage, or avoid wipe if you move a bit after.
It means a radius of 4 units which implies a wipe only with a perfect central hit co sidering models don't bunch up.

And if you are aware if demos you can simply cap than move back squad and get minimal damage as most of the times players can't see enemy squad but only capping.

Obviously, let's create a lab environment...because in real games infantry squads remain immobile...

Your confusing ability to squad wipe with chance to do so.

The unit will kill all entities withing 8 units that make it a squad wiping unit.

Now if the unit is to slow to fire and infantry can move out of the way it still a squad wiping unit.

And that is why this unit in this role are difficult to balance their will either obliterate everything they hit or they will do nothing. That makes the frustrating to play with or against.

They should simply trade squad wipe potential for utility.

The unit will kill all entities withing 8 units that make it a squad wiping unit.

Now if the unit is to slow to fire and infantry can move out of the way it still a squad wiping unit.

They should simply trade squad wipe potential for utility.

There is nothing bad in getting a squad wipe for careless play.

If I know the enemy has demo, I will place capping squad in a way only one model enters the capping area, 90 muni wasted on one model.
If I see sturmtiger I will invest in proper recon, doc or nondoc.

As I said, i'm not against toning down aoe and/or increase price for some utility, but making the shell "a brummbar copy" is nonsense, it could fire a shell THREE times heavier than brummbar.

As I said, i'm not against toning down aoe and/or increase price for some utility, but making the shell "a brummbar copy" is nonsense, it could fire a shell THREE times heavier than brummbar.

That is what I did with the AVRE, and the Sturmtiger is completely replaced with the Brummbar.

Anyways the AVRE rework is more of a buff than a nerf. The AVRE now has immense field presence and will actually kill more infantry while being more fair to play against.

For the Sturmtiger, how would you rework it so it would not be squad wiping machine. Give exact stat changes. When it come to fighting vehicles, people do not like two shooting Elephants and Jagtigers while the Sturmtiger can kill in one? Multiple in one?

That is what I did with the AVRE, and the Sturmtiger is completely replaced with the Brummbar.

Anyways the AVRE rework is more of a buff than a nerf. The AVRE now has immense field presence and will actually kill more infantry while being more fair to play against.

For the Sturmtiger, how would you rework it so it would not be squad wiping machine. Give exact stat changes. When it come to fighting vehicles, people do not like two shooting Elephants and Jagtigers while the Sturmtiger can kill in one? Multiple in one?

Reduce damage to 240, AOE 12, AOE Far multiplier to 2.5% shot now suppress all in aoe.

This change aim at working as counter to blobs since it will suppress them.


Penetration to 200, Aoe Penetration to 200. AOE damage to tanks now stun them for 2 seconds. Penetrating shot cause engine damage.

This change aim allowing to counter tanks.

Reload lowered by 0.75%, aim time about the same.

x4 damage to structures ignores braces and cover bonuses off all types.

This changes aim at solidifying the unit in role close to the historic one, as a counter to fortifications.

ST becomes easier to use less devastating with utility and less killing power vs units more vs structures.

Similar changes but scaled to unit cost can be made for Brumbar.

(numbers more as an example and might need some tuning)

That is what I did with the AVRE, and the Sturmtiger is completely replaced with the Brummbar.

Anyways the AVRE rework is more of a buff than a nerf. The AVRE now has immense field presence and will actually kill more infantry while being more fair to play against.

For the Sturmtiger, how would you rework it so it would not be squad wiping machine. Give exact stat changes. When it come to fighting vehicles, people do not like two shooting Elephants and Jagtigers while the Sturmtiger can kill in one? Multiple in one?

Avre change is ok, good one

Sturmtiger:
Damage to 400
Far damage multiplier to 0.15
Distance far to 6 (it means with those stats that from 5.5 circa the blow won't be lethal for a model)
Any unit in a radius of 8 units will be suppressed/pinned.
+50% damage vs buildings and emplacements.