Coh 3 - Night Time Mechanics

With the post DOW3 landscape, the feedback questionnaires from Relic, the opening of the COH3 expectations thread and the announcement of the Fall Balance Patch, now is the time, more than ever, to put forward ideas for COH3. It’s now, while Relic are still presumably in the concept phase, that these ideas need to be put forward. And if the considerable and impressive adoption pf Mr. Smith and Miragefla’s ideas are any indication, Relic are certainly in the listening mood. To this end, I submit my ideas, here and now.

For the most part, what was needed to be said has already been said. Reverting the resource scheme back to Coh1, side armour, reverting doctrines back to coh1 designs, side upgrades, global upgrades, better designed maps, retaining all of coh2’s UI improvement, binding hotkeys etc. I don’t intend to drum out the same spiel as was said before. Instead, I want to introduce a 2 new ideas, just to see what the reaction would be like.

This new idea is…

Night Time Mechanics.

But I also want to showcase an idea for the…

Africa Korps

…. allow me to explain how they works.

Night Time Mechanics is not a world away from Cold Tech. Except unlike cold tech, where it was impossible to mitigate its effects and the effects themselves were game changingly severe, Night Time Mechanics can be nullified by the player and the effects themselves wouldn’t be too severe.

Night Time Mechanics would have the same visual impact of Cold Tech. Relic would undoubtedly integrate shadows, streams of light and gun flashes perfectly, creating the beautiful gaming experience that we are used to. It would also impact the audio of Coh3. Units could whisper at night, comment on the time and react to the night in general. All of this lends itself to enhanced aesthetic.

From a gameplay perspective, the primary effect of Night Time would be reduced line of sight, by the reasonable amount of 20% for infantry and 30% for vehicles. Depending on how it was implemented, improved camouflage might also be an idea. However, these effects should come in gradually and be visually intuitive. Players should have a clear indication of the onset of Night time effects. A timer located on the side of the screen with numeric details of the impacts clearly detailed. Night should take a lot longer to come on, around 3 minutes, should remain so for another 3 minutes, before gradually becoming day again, over another 3 minutes. During this time, the map should visually change, sun going down, shadows extending behind buildings etc. It should be easy to tell at what point of the night you are at without having to check the indicator.

Below I have highlighted what I mean by Day Time LOS and Night Time LOS:

Unit --------------------------------Night LOS---------------------------|-----Day-LOS-----|----Range----|


So naturally your Day Time LOS is shorter than your unit’s range, in the same way that your night time LOS is shorter than your day time LOS and your range. As for what impacts Night Time LOS; fires, street lamps and burning wrecks should re-establish line of sight of nearby units to their day time levels, but at the same time units near fires should be visible to opponent’s units if they are in range of their day time LOS. Gun flashes should illuminate your opponent’s models firing on the condition that they are at least within your squad’s Day Time LOS, but only for the briefest second, like a model coming out of camouflage before becoming invisible again. Of course, when your opponent’s squads are firing within your night time LOS they would automatically be visible. All units should have hold fire options, in order to pull off sneaky night time flanks.

The most important difference between Cold Tech and Night Time Mechanics is that the player should actually be able to, not only negate the impacts of the Night Time, but also be able to use the effects to their own advantage. This is achieved on a tactical level, when players pull off sick flanks and ambush units, by utilizing the shorter LOS of their opponent’s units at night, but it also occurs on a strategic level by upgrading squads, purchasing side tech and unlocking abilities that improve your own units LOS. Below I’ve shown how this could be accomplished through faction design and doctrine design.

Personally, I would like the African/Italian theatre to be the starting point in COH3. The first two factions being Brits and the Africa Korps. I would love to see the original US and Wehr added after that. Although you could implement this mechanic using any faction. These ideas are merely to highlight how Night Time Upgrades would be implemented into factions, tech, squads and doctrines.

Brits

We’re going to use the current Brit design as a base. While Brits probably need a bit of work, they’re markedly better than they were in Coh1, third time’s a charm? How Night Time Mechanics could be implemented would be to add three side tech upgrades into tier 2, listed below. I’ve also included a Night Time Doctrine, showcasing how versatile a mechanic like this would be.

Infantry Night Combat (150MP, 25 Fuel)

Gives Sections, Sappers, Commandos, Vickers and other infantry squads:

- Plant trip fire flare ability: 15 munitions, illuminates a large area of the map when tripped by your opponent
- Flashlights Upgrade: 35 munitions, increases their LOS at night by 10%, but not up to full daytime LOS. The drawback is that they can be seen through fog of war. Can be toggled on and off for sneaky plays.
Gives Sappers:
- Construct Spotlight emplacement: 100MP, 5 Fuel. Illuminates a large area within its surrounding area. Can be set to face a certain direction or can be set to sweep a set arc.

Gives Vickers:

- Tracer Ammunition Ability: 20 munitions, loads tracer ammunition into the gun, making it more accurate and faster suppression. Only available at night.

Gives Pyrotechnic Package and Mortars

- Illuminating round. 25 munitions, fired into the fog of war to illuminate an area.

Vehicle Night Combat (150MP, 10 Fuel)

Gives the Bren Carrier, AEC and M5:

- Headlight Upgrade: 25 munitions, allows the vehicle to turn on headlights. This restores the vehicle’s LOS to day time LOS, but in a limited arc and your opponent can see the headlights through Fog of war. You should be able to toggle them on and off, for sneaky plays.
- Silent running ability: 20 munitions, vehicles move at half speed but makes 75% less noise in fog of war, again good for sneaky plays.

Tank Night Combat (150 MP, 35 Fuel)

Gives Cromwell, Churchill, Comet, Fireplay:

- Headlight Upgrade: ^^
- Silent running ability: ^^
- Fire flare ability: 25 munitions, kinda like the smoke shell for the Sherman but when it lands it illuminates a small area around it.

Covert Tactics Doctrine

Left Side - Night Time Operations

1 CP Radio Silence

Exactly like OKW radio silence.

1 CP Suppressors

Sections and Commandos can upgrade with De Lisle Carbines. Sappers can upgrade with Sten silencers. Both cost munitions. Commandos don’t have to upgrade if they don’t want to as they already start with silenced Stens. Silencers of both types basically remove muzzle flash, meaning that your squads can sit out of the LOS of your opponent’s squads and presuming you have LOS, pick away at them without revealing their position. It would require intensive micro to remain out of your opponent’s LOS, while still maintaining both range and LOS of your opponent, but naturally its quite a powerful tactic.

2 CPs Canal Defence Light

Call in a M3 Grant upgraded with a Canal Defence Light. This powerful spotlight not only illuminates a large area but also blinds and slows infantry within a certain range in its arc at night.

Right Side - Espionage

1 CP Radio Triangulation

Like first game.

1 CP Ultra Description

Like first game.

2 CPs Commandos

Like now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is how I would implement Night Time Upgrades to Brits, but to get a feel for how this would play out in a game I need an opposing faction to contrast it against.

Africa Korps (AK)

Just an Axis counterpart I made up. It highlights the potential interplay you could have by utilizing different Night Time Bonuses in each faction.

HQ

----------------------------------------------HQ Units----------------------------------------------------
Engineers

Italian 4 men squad, start with Carcano rifles, flamethrower upgrade, minesweeper upgrade, standard repair, barbed wire, mines etc. Builds all tech structures. Can also build Watchtowers for 100MP. These are the AK equivalent of WH bunkers. When garrisoned provide excellent LOS but overall are weaker and easier to destroy. Can be upgraded to an MG Nest, for a munitions cost, providing 360 area denial.

Regulars

Italian 5 men squad equipped with Carcano rifles. Primarily a mid-range squad. Once T1/T2 is complete they can use L Type AT grenades.

Breda 61 (SDKFZ 7)

Light reinforcement platform, vulnerable to small arms fire. When used in the field it can transport squads and reinforce.
Can be upgraded into a Supply Vehicle, allowing it to be locked down into a resource cache or base healing.

----------------------------------------------HQ Upgrades-------------------------------------------------

Infantry Equipment (100MP 25 Fuel)

Gives Regulars:

- Frag Grenades
- Smoke grenades

Gives Assault Infantry:

- Frag Grenades

Gives Gunners:

- Smoke Grenades

Gives Fusiliers:

- If upgraded with the Assault Package: Gives them the Bundled Nade ability.
- If upgraded with the Support Package: Gives them access with Frange smoke grenade.
- If upgraded with the AT Package: Gives them access to HaftHolLadung Magnetic Mine (HHLD). The HHLD should be like the satchel in that its short range but heavy damage.

Support Equipment (100MP 15 Fuel)

Insert a variety of support weapon abilities here, much like infantry equipment.

Night Time Equipment (100 MP, 35 Fuel)

Gives Engineers

- Build Fire Ability: 30 Manpower, all squads in the vicinity of the fire have their LOS restored to daytime levels, however they themselves are also visible to your opponent’s squads, presuming your squads are within their Day Time LOS.

Gives Engineers, Regulars, Submachine Gunners, Gunners, Pak40, HMGS, Fusiliers

- Flare Gun ability: 15 Munitions, fire a flare gun to the edge of your range, highlighting your opponent’s squads that might be lurking there.

Gives Watchtowers

- Spotlight upgrade. 35 munitions, spotlight grants the player a long LOS within its arc. Can be manually faced or set to do an angular sweep.

Gives Breda 61, Autoblinda Armoured Car

- Headlights Upgrade: ^^

T1

Assault Infantry

Italian 5-men squad each with a Beretta 38 submachine gun. Primary short-range infantry squad.

HMG Team

Italian 4-man team, 3 armed with rifles and one with a Breda M37 HMG. Suppression platform.

Sniper

Your standard Sniper unit.

Tank Hunters

Italian 4-man squad, 2 armed with 35P AT rifles and two armed with rifles. Can throw L-type AT grenades. Primary AT infantry.

T2

Gunners

Italian 4-man squad, 2 armed with Breda 30 LMGs and 2 with rifles. Primary long-range infantry squad.

Mountain gun team

Italian 4-man team, 2 manning a Obice da 75/18 M34 mountain gun and 2 equipped with rifles. In direct fire unit.

Autoblinda Armoured Car

Light armoured car equipped with double LMGs. Solid at harassing squads and chasing down snipers.

Pak 40
Same as for OST, minus TWP. German Crew.

T3 (Requires T1/T2)

Unlocks 20mm gun upgrade for the Autoblinda once built and Bakelite AT mines for Tank hunters.
Also unlocks Flakvierling upgrade for the SDKFZ 7, costing a certain amount of manpower and fuel. Gives it potent anti-air and anti-infantry.

-------------------------------------------------T3 Units-------------------------------------------------

Fusiliers

German 4 men Heavy infantry squad, all equipped with G41s. Excel at medium range. Can be upgraded with: -
- Assault Package: Equips entire squad with MP44s.
- Support Package: Equips squad with double LMG42s.
- AT Package: Equips squad with double Panzerschrecks.

M15/42 tank

Italian Light Tank. Think slightly more powerful Stuart which excels against infantry and other light vehicles.

Semovente 75/34

Medium Italian Tank Destroyer.

----------------------------------------------T3 Upgrades-------------------------------------------------

Panzer Tactician (200MP 15 Fuel)

Insert a variety of vehicle abilities here.

Panzer Strategist (200MP 25 Fuel)

Insert a variety of vehicle upgrades here.

Nocturnal Assault (200MP 35 Fuel)

Gives Regulars, Fusiliers (With Assault Package), Tank Hunters, Submachine Gunners

- Sneak Ability: Allows squads to camouflage in light cover during peak night time hours. Can move from cover to cover without leaving camouflage. High detection radius.

Gives HMGS, Pak 40s, Gunners, Fusiliers (With Support Package, AT Package)

- Ambush Ability: Allows units to camouflage in light cover, however they must remain stationary. When engaging out of camo they gain an accuracy bonus.

Gives M15/42, Semovente 75/34, Panzer 4, Semovente 105/25, Grille, Autoblinda, Breda 61

- Headlights upgrade: ^^
- Kill Engine: Allows the vehicle to camouflage when stationary, but also turns of the engine as well, meaning it makes no noise in the fog of war. Good for ambushes.

T4 (Requires T3)

Unlocks Flak88 upgrade for the SDKFZ 7, costing a certain amount of manpower and fuel. Once upgraded the HT becomes the SDKFZ 8 with a Flak 88 gun. It can lock down to fire its 88mm gun, functioning in much the same way as Flak88 did in coh1. Can be packed up and relocated.

Panzer 4

Main battle tank.

Semovente 105/25.

Heavy Anti-Infantry tank.

Grille

Heavy Mobile Artillery.

Discussion of the Africa Korp

Before I go into the discussion on how the Night Mechanics would play out, a quick note on the design of the AK. The AK are an aggressive yet flimsy Axis army. They’re most likely Allied counterpart would be the Original US. Except unlike the US which relied on fuel upgrades for weapons and unlike Wehr which required munitions upgrades for weapons, the AK can buy squads already upgraded, but the different types are tech specific. So in the early game, the big question the AK player themselves is ‘how many regular squads do I want before teching?’. Going for several, especially backed up by a Breda 61 HT, would be highly aggressive. Your aim would be to cut off and strangle your opponent in the first few minutes, in a similar fashion to heavy T1 builds with OST, as your starting squads wouldn’t scale well into the late game. This would be a dependable strategy against Brits, who rely on small squad numbers and taking small chunks of territory in the early game. Having many squads swarming across the map taking territory would lead to a strong early game.

However, another strong strategy would be to tech after your first three squads. The primary reason for this would be fielding upgraded squads nice and early. Calling on LMG toting squads or submachine gun packing infantry without a munitions investment required would be powerful. But in teching up you must commit yourself to not only the cost of the tier, but also the tier itself, both tiers being subtlety different. T1 has units (Assault infantry and Tank hunters) better suited to close range engagements, on maps with plenty of buildings and shot blockers. T2 has units (Gunners and Paks) that excel at long range on maps that are clear and expansive. However, T1 has units (HMG, Sniper) that are better suited to open maps and T2 has units (mountain gun, armoured car) better suited to tight maps with buildings. Both tiers, while equals, are different in nuanced ways. To say one is superior to the other in certain situations would be too simple, it all depends on what you field and how you use it. There’s nothing stopping you from going three regulars into literally any one of these 8 units, giving you extensive early game variety. It all depends on the situation, if a Bren carrier/AEC is causing you pain, get a Pak or Tank Hunters. If your opponent is spamming Tommies, an MG or armoured car would help keep him in check, but even getting upgraded squads yourself would be an option. If faced with heavy support weapon play, Snipers and Mountain Guns are your best friends. While your units themselves are dedicated and narrowly purposed, you have the flexibility to create an army that can counter any obstacle facing it by combining specialities, like using a Rook in conjunction with a Bishop in Chess.

Side tech is thankfully independent of this tier choice, as it is located in the HQ, but it still presents you with a choice: do I want to go for an infantry dominant strategy or a support weapon dominant strategy? This again depends on what the situation is, what tier you went and what units you fielded, but Night time mechanics only add to the complexity of this decision as you weigh up between better infantry, better support weapons or better flexibility at night.

Following your first tech, the decision you make then is between lateral teching and vertical teching. Teching from T1 to T2 and vice versa has a lot to be said for it. MGs and Mountain guns have great synergy, likewise Autoblinda’s can provide sight for Snipers. Paks covered by Tank Hunters are impossible to flank and having full access to the different types of infantry allows you to round out your composition so it can tackle your opponent efficiently at all ranges.

Teching T3 instead gives you the immediate advantage of heavy and flexible infantry. Fusiliers can be upgraded to cover any hole in your army that you were not able to handle before, with the added benefit of scaling well into the late game. The M15/42 is a solid light tank that will give you field presence, in much the same way a T70 does when playing Soviets. Upgrading the Breda 61 with a flak cannon would create a mobile anti infantry and anti-air platform, not a world away from the M5. And finally, Sem 75 tank destroyer, which would be a reliable medium tank counter. All of these vehicles can be augmented with side tech, either in the form of abilities and upgrades, offering alternative strategies.

T4 is your standard late game affair. The Panzer 4 is a steady piece of late game medium armour, which acts as the centre of your late game strategy. Supported by Sem 105, the duo will crush your opponent’s infantry. Likewise, a Grille would be devastating against support weapons and fortifications. And finally, Flak88 HTs would be your primary tool for dealing with enemy tanks. Set up behind your armour and it will make your force difficult to dislodge.

You’ll notice that AK late game mirrors how the Africa Korp dealt with tanks in the actual Second World War, relying on Italian and German medium tanks to shield Flak88s. Another aspect of note is the shifting dynamics between the Brit and AK factions as the game progresses. The AK are the early game aggressor while Brits are on the defensive, before the game evens out around the middle and the finally Brits are more aggressive and AK are far more defensive, aiming to bait enemy tanks into flak88s using their weaker armour, again just like in the Second World War. I say weaker, but really all AK lack vs other factions is a heavy brawler like the Panther. But with this design, supplemented by smart doctrine design you can mitigate this Achilles heel.

In conclusion, this design Is thematic, strategically diverse, represents the actual Africa Korp pretty well and comprehensive, not lacking any of the tools needed by a competitive Coh faction. It needs to be fleshed out but that is unnecessary at this stage.

Discussion of Night Time Mechanics

The best way of illustrating Night Time mechanics would be using a hypothetical game, showing how it would play out. Let’s say we have a game, Brits vs Africa Korp, on Crossing in the Woods. Brits in the North and AK in the South.

The Brit player starts off by queuing up another Section and follows that up with a Vickers when he has the chance. He caps in the direction of the right-hand side fuel, building sandbags as he goes. The AK player ques up double regulars into a Breda 61, giving him a strong early game presence, while his engineer caps the left, his combat squads move up the centre with the aim of taking the cut-off. Sounds of rifle fire from the second Section signals the start of the game as they attempt the aggressive move of taking the munitions point, but with two Regulars moving in from the west they wisely back pedal to the cover of the other section at the fuel point. The AK player sensing the displaced Sections feels a cut-off move is in order, he charges down the centre with his two squads but is dismayed when he runs into a Vickers. One squad gets suppressed and if it wasn’t for the Breda 61 arriving just in time, the squad would likely have been forced to retreat. The squad garrisons the HT, but not without the HT taking 20% damage under the fire of the MG. With an M3 you would be tempted to charge down that Vickers, but unfortunately the Breda 61 is not an M3 and is much too slow and costly to risk that kind of flank. The AK player cuts his losses and decides to consolidate his territory, having capped most of the left and his third Regular squad moving up to take the munitions on the right. The sections on the right move in for some harassment but the Breda 61 rolls in for the reinforce. While two sections would normally beat two regulars, with that reinforce its not much of a contest and they back pedal in good time.

What would our players decide to do at this point? A wise idea for the Brit player would be getting a third section, as having seen the third squad of regulars and Breda 61, there’s quite a strong possibility that the AK player is going to go man spam with a 4th regular and swarm the Brit player if he decides to tech at this point. Going a Bren Carrier would be a bit late and getting a second Vickers would commit him to a highly defensive strategy, which he doesn’t want to do. Our AK player really has all the options in the World. Going T2 on this map would be a good move, as Gunners would be quite strong at this point. With them he could outrange the sections off the right-side fuel and use an Autoblinda to chase down a sniper if his opponent decides to up the ante. However, approaching the 3-minute mark the timer is about to hit the beginning of Night time, meaning the LOS of his units is gradually going to be reduced. Gunners would be less effective as the night wears on, as they are less capable of utilizing their range, and he would be effectively forced to invest in Night Time Equipment to get the best value out of them. This puts Assault infantry in the ascendancy, as if he maintains the initiative and keeps his opponent on the defensive, he’ll have an easier time flanking sections with their decreased LOS. So this is what he decides to do.

The AK player retreats his engineers to build T1 while the third section is being built, and not a moment too soon. The sections and Vickers are having a tough time holding off the three regulars supported by the Breda 61. The sections have the range advantage and the cover advantage but the strength of that in field reinforcement is made felt as one squad of sections is forced to retreat. Luckily the Vickers catches one of the regulars out of cover and is forced to retreat and with the arrival of the third section, the AK player decides to lighten up the pressure on his manpower and break off. The timer for the Night has started and the LOS of units is gradually starting to decrease, the sun set streams across the battle field as the conflict rages on. A squad of regulars manages to sneak around the sections on the VP to cap the fuel, taking up position in the heavy cover. At the same time the Assault infantry and third regular squad are pushing down the middle looking for the flank. They’re met by a squad of Royal Engineers and the reinforced section and are held up on the bridge. Stretched, the AK player is in a tough spot and is forced to retreat after decapping the fuel. His Breda is shot up and returns to the base to retire as base healing and the rest of his squads soft retreat to the left to cap territory and prevent any incursions. The victorious Brit player caps up the right and plans his next move.

The Brit player has successfully taken the initiative and now is likely to begin attacking as we approach the six-minute mark. The onset of night is 90 seconds in and is certainly starting to become noticeable, as his squad LOS is decreased by 10%. A sniper given the decreased LOS would not be the best move and since his opponent has gone T1 there’s no real need to get AT. Engineers would be the solid choice but the real question is what tech should he go for? He’s had decent fuel control so far and could have any side tech he chooses, but is still far off a Cromwell. He decides to play it by ear, waiting to see what comes of the next engagement. An early Cromwell might finish the AK player right there and then. As for the AK player, he recognises he’s on the back foot. An MG would be a solid defensive play here but he needs to make a play here to regain the initiative and reckons under the cover of night would be the best time for it. He ques up a sniper and night time equipment and moves his infantry up onto the battlefield.

The Brit player chances his arm by harassing the left-hand side, but runs into mines and is forced to retreat two squads. Not willing to take chances he soft retreats back to the right side. Just as the dead of night rolls in the Sniper comes onto the field and Night Time Equipment finishes. The AK player begins to make his play, moving his assault infantry up the centre and his regulars start moving into the right from the centre and his base. Before moving in though he fires flares into the area to spot the Vickers lying in wait. The sniper opens up, with its decreased LOS the Vickers is an easy target. Where a Sniper would have been bad for the Brit with decreased LOS, when the AK uses a sniper with Night Time equipment, its power is only exemplified, as its even easier to kite units with shorter LOS. This is true for all long-range units. The regulars start engaging the Tommies from the darkness, which is advantageous to them as they take less incoming fire themselves and with flares they can see the sections perfectly. The sections can’t close the distance because in doing so they not only enter a range they don’t perform well in, but they also lose their cover bonus. Having no choice, they retreat. The regulars start capping up the right as the Brit player moves his squads up the left. He manages to force off the squads in the centre after taking heavy casualties and scrambles to take territory on the left. At least this time he has a sweeper.

This is a clear example of how night time mechanics, when utilized well, can make or break an engagement and when ignored can lead to your undoing. A sniper combined with flares was incredibly advantageous to the AK player, allowing him to pick away at his opponent with no fear of being shot at in return. Keeping his regulars at a distance and firing on sections from outside of their night time LOS gave his squads an immediate advantage which he used to rout his opponent. If the Brit player had got Infantry night combat or even increased squad sizes or Brens it would have levelled the playing field, but instead he decided to risk going for a Cromwell and was punished for it. Having learned his lesson, he immediately techs infantry night combat and gets a sniper of his own. Luckily for him, the AK player is worried about enemy armour and techs up to T3. He’s still a way off his first vehicle so gets an MG to defend the right.

The Brit player needs a good win here to get back in the game, and upon completion of the night time tech he immediately puts down a spotlight on the left-hand side. He’s only just managed to secure the fuel and the VP and is expecting the AK player to make his next push soon. The dead of night is over half way complete and soon it will gradually get back to day time levels. He puts his Vickers in front of the spotlight and moves his sniper up nearby as well, to maximise the value he derives from it. He also upgrades one squad with flashlights and another with Pyrotechnic supplies. Planting trip fire flares everywhere just to be safe. The AK player now begins his next flank. Assault Infantry stream through the centre as usual, on hold fire, attempting a deep flank, and the sniper comes up from the south, guarded by regulars. Our AK player can see the spotlight through fog of war and attempts to flank around it but this is made difficult by trip wire flare going off, revealing his flanking squads. The Assault infantry are shut down by the Vickers using tracer rounds and forced to retreat while the Brit Sniper takes a pick at regulars highlighted by the spotlight. A sniper shot on a section discourages him from taking any more shots and the he turns the spotlight to find the AK sniper. Flares are falling all over the area, highlighting the Brit squads but he calls down illuminating rounds with his pyrotechnic squad to highlight theirs. In many ways, the playing field has been levelled and the Vickers is working wonders for Brit player. A squad of regulars hits a trip wire flare, illuminating themselves and the AK sniper, and the Brit player manages to get a counter snipe. This pretty much shuts down the attack as the dead of night is officially over and the onset of dawn has begun.

Perhaps the undoing of the AK player was not bringing up his MG but all things considered he still maintained dominant map control and the VP lead during that whole time. Losing the sniper was a big loss but now he can replace his lack of firepower with Fusiliers. Given the soon approaching day light, upgrading them with LMGs would be the sensible choice but he still needs something to deal with armour. A late M15/42 would not be a good choice, as while the AK player delayed the Cromwell, its appearance is inevitable. A Sem 75 seems like the sensible choice, as AT rifles wouldn’t cut it at this late stage. Finally, the AK player purchases Nocturnal Assault, to catch the Brit player off guard and cash in on the night while it is still here. The Brit player has played right into his hands it should seem, as he now completely neglects Night Time upgrades and goes for increased squad’s sizes, Bren guns and a Cromwell. Not necessarily a bad choice with the oncoming of day, in fact if he lasts until morning he would have the dead set advantage, but currently with 3 minutes until morning he is still on the back foot for now.

The Brit player rocks up onto the right flank looking to stop the drain but two sections are caught out by a cloaked MG and forced off. The brand-new Cromwell moves in to force it off in return but then a pair of headlights switch on and a shot penetrates it through the front. The sem75 has not only the range advantage but currently the sight advantage, being able to see the Cromwell with its headlights. Meanwhile the assault infantry sneaks up cloaked on the Vickers on the left in the confusion and steal it. Things are falling apart for our Brit player as he scrambles to get his Cromwell out of there. What infantry he still has on the field is trading well, but catching the cloaked infantry is becoming problematic as the Brit Sniper is caught out by some cloaked regulars. The Cromwell desperately tries to get away but its right in the headlights of the Sem75 and goes up in smoke. The sunrise shining over the wreck as the Brit player throws in the towel.

In Conclusion

Night Time Mechanics has the potential to add another layer of depth to what is already a reasonably deep strategy game. They offer a compelling alternative to regular side tech, which is usually firepower orientated, focusing on tactics and utilizing the conditions of the map to their own advantage. Both the Brits and the Africa Korp have different means of harnessing advantage when under night time conditions, Brits mainly using defensive trip wire flares and spotlights while Africa Korp using more aggressive flare guns and camouflage. That’s not to say that Brits and Africa Korp can’t be aggressive and defensive respectively, flashlights for Brits and fires for Africa Korp are healthy means of doing so, but the upgrades are suited to the natural playstyle of each faction. The method of prevailing in the Night also differs between units, most vehicles having directional headlights visible through fog of war and infantry having a mix of upgrades and abilities to enhance their effectiveness. It gradually shifts the flow and feel of the game without being jarringly severe like Cold Tech was and gives the player the opportunity to turn the conditions to his advantage. It also presents choice to the players, as choosing between not only the different types of Night Tech but also between Night Tech, other side tech and regular tech. Not to mention units.

Night Time mechanics would also add to the variety in the game. If the minute at which Night rocked in was randomized in each game, some games starting in the Dead of Night, some games not even having night until the very end, each game would be entirely different, with no two games playing out the same way. Combine this with strategically diverse factions, well-designed doctrines and good map choice and you have the formula for an endlessly replayable game.

If you were feeling bold you could even combine it with Cold Tech. Naturally Cold Tech would need to be looked at again, toned down a bit, upgrades added to each faction so they can combat it and use it to their advantage, frustrating stuff like units dying on retreat due to cold removed, but the potential is again there to add even more depth to the game.

Night Time Mechanics also has the advantage of adding the aesthetic and atmosphere of the game, arguably some of the most attractive elements of Coh. I think there would be few people who would complain about seeing the glow of cigarettes smoked by soldiers while waiting in the night, or sparks illuminating the area around a tank just hit by a shell, or the warm sunrise ascending over the battlefield after a night of carnage, crafting shadows across the terrain.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think. I’m curious.

I predict a better destrucion battlefield for CoH3.

Like MoW.

There is already a night time mechanic in the game but it's purely cosmetical and I prefer it that way.

Reason and proof it won't work? ColdTech and the removal of Blizzards from Winter maps unless in custom games.

There is already a night time mechanic in the game but it's purely cosmetical and I prefer it that way.

Reason and proof it won't work? ColdTech and the removal of Blizzards from Winter maps unless in custom games.

Gotta agree with you on that.
I am really sorry but I honestly just flew over the original text because it was too long for me.

I am absolutely not in favor for any gimmicky engine feature that is used as a marketing feature like Coldtech was for CoH2. Keep it simple like vCoH was. Have "useful" upgrades like true vision but nothing that 50% of the game revolves around.

we used to spend manpower for firesource then they knew they fook up so it free. we used to have free firesource but you can't build while it snow so they let you build fire anytime. and finally they know it effect too much balanced so they remove it

-Cold Tech

I am sorry, but this is a terrible idea.

I know CoH series traditionally fudges some numbers, most notably where ranges are concerned, but the proposed 12-(ish) minute night day-night cycle would completely throw me off.

In Warcraft 3 and Dota it works fine, as I am sure it would work in Pacman or Galaga or Tetris or other abstract games. But CoH2 aspires to at least some semblance of authenticity. A tank that can't shoot further than 40 meters is acceptable to me, while a 3-minute night is laughable. If I had to explain this inconsistency I would say it's because the way ranges work is a core mechanic of the game (with realistic ranges, the game would not play nearly as fluently because minor elevation differences would dictate what you can hit and what you cannot across the map, and spotting and analyzing these elevations is simply not possible with the eye-in-the-sky camera setup of an RTS.)

On the other hand, the night/day cycle is not a core feature, the game works just fine and almost identically without it.

Regardless of the above - let's say I can get over this 3 minute night thing.

Let's look at what this change brings from a game design lens. It is a timed, predictable period of reduced line of sight. So far so good, I can see it working maybe, it's what Blizzards should have been but then Relic added all these needless mechanics around it such as fire pits and freezing etc.

You make the same mistake: you proceed to detail entire game mechanics, call-ins and upgrades revolving around this VERY LIMITED PERIOD of reduced LoS. What the hell do I do with a canal light when it is NOT NIGHTTIME? It was supposed to be a side mechanic adding a little bit new to the already deep CoH2 strategic game, and now here you are making upgrades, elements, resources to be spent to allow specialization for this... it almost feels like you are not making CoH3 with a side mechanic, you are making a side mechanic and building armies and commanders and entire CoH3 around it.

In game design, more is not always better, on the contrary. One of the reasons CoH2 works so well is that its core mechanics are straightforward and simple.

I could see these intricate mechanics working in a game that was built specifically around night ops.

what about simply taking the best from coh1 & coh2,
focus on balanced factions and maps.

Night time mechanics is indeed an interesting thing, but be realist even one second, RELIC can't do that.

Take a look at blizzard thing in coh2, so much time from Relic wasted on it for finally geting it removed when they could have used this time fixing some Hard bugs.

If relic ever make Coh3 one day, i hope that they understand how important it is to focus on doing simple thing right, instead of doing a shit lot of stuff broken (Take a look at DOW3 if you don't trust me).

what about simply taking the best from coh1 & coh2,
focus on balanced factions and maps.

Night time mechanics is indeed an interesting thing, but be realist even one second, RELIC can't do that.

Take a look at blizzard thing in coh2, so much time from Relic wasted on it for finally geting it removed when they could have used this time fixing some Hard bugs.

If relic ever make Coh3 one day, i hope that they understand how important it is to focus on doing simple thing right, instead of doing a shit lot of stuff broken (Take a look at DOW3 if you don't trust me).

If we're honest here we all just want CoH but with CoH 2's content and new features and Quality of Life changes like the minimap capture queuing and multiple squad reinforcing.

Only a few people like CoH 2's shitty Army design (except for Brits to a bigger extent), shitty cartoony graphics (same with DoW 3), shitty commander design and shitty balance that is still shitty even after 4 years of patches and development.

I am sorry, but this is a terrible idea.

I know CoH series traditionally fudges some numbers, most notably where ranges are concerned, but the proposed 12-(ish) minute night day-night cycle would completely throw me off.

In Warcraft 3 and Dota it works fine, as I am sure it would work in Pacman or Galaga or Tetris or other abstract games. But CoH2 aspires to at least some semblance of authenticity. A tank that can't shoot further than 40 meters is acceptable to me, while a 3-minute night is laughable. If I had to explain this inconsistency I would say it's because the way ranges work is a core mechanic of the game (with realistic ranges, the game would not play nearly as fluently because minor elevation differences would dictate what you can hit and what you cannot across the map, and spotting and analyzing these elevations is simply not possible with the eye-in-the-sky camera setup of an RTS.)

On the other hand, the night/day cycle is not a core feature, the game works just fine and almost identically without it.

Regardless of the above - let's say I can get over this 3 minute night thing.

Let's look at what this change brings from a game design lens. It is a timed, predictable period of reduced line of sight. So far so good, I can see it working maybe, it's what Blizzards should have been but then Relic added all these needless mechanics around it such as fire pits and freezing etc.

You make the same mistake: you proceed to detail entire game mechanics, call-ins and upgrades revolving around this VERY LIMITED PERIOD of reduced LoS. What the hell do I do with a canal light when it is NOT NIGHTTIME? It was supposed to be a side mechanic adding a little bit new to the already deep CoH2 strategic game, and now here you are making upgrades, elements, resources to be spent to allow specialization for this... it almost feels like you are not making CoH3 with a side mechanic, you are making a side mechanic and building armies and commanders and entire CoH3 around it.

In game design, more is not always better, on the contrary. One of the reasons CoH2 works so well is that its core mechanics are straightforward and simple.

I could see these intricate mechanics working in a game that was built specifically around night ops.

Night actually lasts 9 minutes, the 3 minute part is the point where it remains at its peak. Getting hung up on duration is kinda arbitrary at this point. It's merely an example, but even 18 minutes for a day is a pretty long time in a game. I contemplated having it last much longer but, like you said, a side mechanic shouldn't dominate the game. If night start point is randomized, some games might not even last to see the night.

As for what you why you would use Night Time upgrades if you don't benefit from them during the day, I think you're missing the point. The point is that you have to choose between these upgrades and other tech. There's nothing forcing you to use them. If you don't value them then that's fine, but players who do use them are going to have a distinct advantage over you for 9 minutes of the game. Which is a pretty reasonable amount of time. But here's the best part, its still viable to ignore these upgrades and purchase other side tech as Night Time reductions to LOS are not so insanely severe that it forces you to use them. It's a strategic choice.

As for commanders, why not have commanders dedicated to night? They'd be in the minority but its just another way of playing, just like any doctrine is supposed to be. You wouldn't have to choose them, its an option.

There is already a night time mechanic in the game but it's purely cosmetical and I prefer it that way.

Reason and proof it won't work? ColdTech and the removal of Blizzards from Winter maps unless in custom games.

Cold tech was implemented badly. Saying something else won't be implemented well because something entirely different was implemented badly is profound pessimism.

what about simply taking the best from coh1 & coh2,
focus on balanced factions and maps.

Night time mechanics is indeed an interesting thing, but be realist even one second, RELIC can't do that.

Take a look at blizzard thing in coh2, so much time from Relic wasted on it for finally geting it removed when they could have used this time fixing some Hard bugs.

If relic ever make Coh3 one day, i hope that they understand how important it is to focus on doing simple thing right, instead of doing a shit lot of stuff broken (Take a look at DOW3 if you don't trust me).

If we're honest here we all just want CoH but with CoH 2's content and new features and Quality of Life changes like the minimap capture queuing and multiple squad reinforcing.

I agree with this. New ideas aside, I would definitely encourage Relic to perfect what they have done well rather than go crazy adding new features. I would even go as far to say as copy and paste US and Wehr from Coh1 and you'd make a lot of people happy.

Its just an idea I thought I'd put out there. I don't think they would try it because, while interesting, there's too much hate for anything remotely connected to Cold Tech for them to try it. Its too much of a 'risky commercial proposition'. Which is a shame because Cold Tech had the potential to be really interesting. They just implemented it really poorly.

This topic brings to mind the old days of CoH1. Didn't vehicle units in that game use Lights during the night? Why was this removed in CoH2? Optimization?

As for the actually topic, I see nothing wrong with adding the mechanic IF it can be switched off like Cold Tech. I'd love it but not everyone feels the same.

This topic brings to mind the old days of CoH1. Didn't vehicle units in that game use Lights during the night? Why was this removed in CoH2? Optimization?

As for the actually topic, I see nothing wrong with adding the mechanic IF it can be switched off like Cold Tech. I'd love it but not everyone feels the same.

The problem with switching on and off is that you still need some gold standard for automatch. If the feature is going to be active in automatch then most of the players will be forced to used just becouse they want ballanced matchups. If not, then barely anybody is going to use it and there is no point in implementing it.

That hamlet map used to turn dark during game play. People didn't even simply like that and it was removed to just say time.

A lot of effort was put into this post, sadly I can bet my bottom dollar that it won't be implemented in coh2. Unless there is a dedicated moder.

And as for coh3. I think they learned from cold tech not to mess with or alter unit stats/movement/speed in any way.

Cold tech was implemented badly. Saying something else won't be implemented well because something entirely different was implemented badly is profound pessimism.

I consider myself a realist which I admit contains a chunk of pessimism, but still, we have proof that Relic failed before, and now has also failed with DoW 3, what exactly makes you think they won't fail a 3rd time?

can't blame A.soldier or anyone else for being pessimist about Relic professionalism...

looks like we are a few to have the same point of view on what should be Coh3, like JB. said, they don't need to make a whole new game with new mechanics & shits but more a coh 2.5 on a new engine, with the factions from coh1 (especially the commander tree which has been replaced by
P2W commander in coh2 and lead to huge balance issue), new maps, etc ..

But after having seen what Relic did on DOW3, which was supposed to take the best from DOW1 and DOW2, They managed to trigger the DOW1 fan and also the fans of DOW2

Let's see if they can make again such a feat.

I consider myself a realist which I admit contains a chunk of pessimism, but still, we have proof that Relic failed before, and now has also failed with DoW 3, what exactly makes you think they won't fail a 3rd time?

I laughed at this because the cynic inside myself said 'cough DOW3 cough'

There is already a night time mechanic in the game but it's purely cosmetical and I prefer it that way.

Reason and proof it won't work? ColdTech and the removal of Blizzards from Winter maps unless in custom games.

+1

Wanted to text that

The problem with switching on and off is that you still need some gold standard for automatch. If the feature is going to be active in automatch then most of the players will be forced to used just becouse they want ballanced matchups. If not, then barely anybody is going to use it and there is no point in implementing it.

Yeah that's a tough one alright. You would definitely want some classic unaltered Coh in automatch, the first thing that I thought would be to map it map dependent but Cold Tech tried something similar if i'm not mistaken.

I suppose it depends on how overwhelming the whole mechanic is. Cold Tech's problem was that it dramatically affected the game and there was nothing you could do about it. I purposely made it so that the impact was very minimal and that it was plenty of ways to counteract the effects. I really think it depends on how well it would be implemented, as let's say it was an instant hit like true sight, then everyone would want it.

I still don't think they would try it though because Cold Tech left too sour a taste in everyone's mouth.