[SOV.] Make AT satchels exclusive to AT rifles?

+1.



It is true that most of the time ( say 75% ) penals can be kited and At satchels are no real threat. However situations can easily arise where the axis player can find themselves at risk due to lack of care or misfortune.

The biggest problem is on urban style maps and maps that have pathing issues. There is nothing so frustrating as to be aware to the risk and try and avoid it only to have your tank/LV go full retard and start doing a 180 degree turn or get stuck on some object because map makers cannot help themselves and fill maps with clutter.

At satchels also become a real risk if, you misclick, hit a mine, experience lag or units get tangled at a choke point or tight space. Collateral damage is too great for 45muni. Late Game can also be an issue when trying to micro units everywhere and it becomes impossible to see every satchel, every At satchel and every demo.

The primary issue is frustration. When playing vs soviets, the axis player has to spend almost the entire game trying micro units to stay out of range of abilities that do not require tech and deliver too great a reward for their cost. Every time a tank or vehicle goes somewhere with blind corners or narrow gaps they are at risk

So lack of care or misfortune, pathing and charging around blind corners are all reasons to nerf the ability. I got it

If we care to speak about abilities that dont have side costs or tech locks but cause a hindrance to the enemy could we look at the osts VERY potent AT mine? Or self sighting no pop mg bunkers? Or 3 of the units in the game that can 1/2 health medium tanks? If you think pathing is annoying when there is a 240 damage snare around imagine what ita like when there is a terrain piercing 320 damage stun gun behind a building shooting at you. Or perhaps the one that can FULL health kill medium tanks from the fog of war and through buildings/trees/other shot blockers?

If players misclicking are to be basis for nerfs i would like to lodge a complaint about how effective machinegun fire is to unarmoured cars, it seems like if you dont pay attention for 5 seconds and they chew right through your kuble/wc51/bren/m3a1

If being punished for not scouting ahead of my armour in preperation for the enemy preparing for ME is cause for a nerf i would like to talk about the OP engime damage from mines (sure i could buy a sweeper but id really rather not be inconvenienced by having to take measures against my opponent playing the tactical game tactically if at all possible)

While we are at it can we also give machineguns a 360° arc, ita getting frustrating setting them up and having the enemy just go around and kill them.

As a matter of fact there should be a mode where you automatch against, like, a bot except there ISNT a bot, you just get to do what ever you want without worry of scouting, clicking properly, paying attention to the game, or having to deal with pesky counterplay. You just que in, maybe start with all the stars (uuugh dont get me started on having to KEEP ON CAPPING THEM OVER AND OVER WHEN THE ENEMY TAKES THEM) and you just win

But for real... Pathing, yea, its equally a bitch for all players (more so if your TD is made of glass like the jackson, or you dont have a turret like the stug), as is misclicks (but using THAT as an example of why something should be nerfed...really?) And considering its ACTUALLY the hardest snare to use AMD the only one that isnt a 2 click guarantee AND the only one that can backfire id say its hardly consider it too great of a reward for its cost (which despite being worse in EVERY SINGLE WAY to ANY other snare with the LONE exception of damage is MORE expensive than other, EASIER to use snares)

All that said, i dont see any reason not to tie the AT satchel behind the tech. I would even say reduce the deflection damage on the ptrs but add a 3rd to even it out so that the penal AI is thoroughly gutted when grabbing the package.

Stuff

The point I was making is If you make a mistake and a penal happens to be in the right place then you are heavily punished and more than is justified for 45 muni. Compare this to a gren or even a pgren who are often risking a squad wipe to faust or attack a tank with schrecks.

The notion that At satchels are hard to land is bs, if you can get behind them and use terrain to assist you. I also think it is pathetic that Axis vehicles have to backtrack or play defensively all the time because of the risk of penals landing 240 damage and engine damage.

I strongly suspect you are not discussing this from a 1v1 perspective. Good job on the sarcasm too but try and stay on topic.

BTW The worst snare in the game is usf.

Penals satchels making the game look starcraft with that op armor, running into you with no problem and putting rng giant explosion.

What exactly is the reason a specialist AI unit with access to AT has a snare in the first place?

The point I was making is If you make a mistake and a penal happens to be in the right place then you are heavily punished and more than is justified for 45 muni.

again, "i made a mistake and the enemy hurt me" isnt a solid basis for balance
its like "i clicked beside the cover not behind it and my guys died, can you make enemy deal less damage"
or "i drove over a mine and the enemy happened to have an AT gun there and i was heavily punished"
you are supposed to support your armour in this game (dont let the usf and brit players fool you) the enemy having units ambushing and outflanking you is not a balance issue- its actually a feature

additionally, what is it for cost?
compare the molitov to the flame nade
for a 20mu difference you get: better range, and faster animation with NO drawbacks compared to the molitov EXCEPT the higher cost
for a 20mu difference on the satchel and AT nade/faust you get: more damage at the cost of less range, longer animation, ability to ACTUALLY dodge it (instead of it following you as long as they clicked) , chance of collateral damage possibly wiping your squad AND a higher cost

its not like penals can sprint at you like cons can, and even then that only works because of the homing mode...

again, "i made a mistake and the enemy hurt me" isnt a solid basis for balance
its like "i clicked beside the cover not behind it and my guys died, can you make enemy deal less damage"
or "i drove over a mine and the enemy happened to have an AT gun there and i was heavily punished"
you are supposed to support your armour in this game (dont let the usf and brit players fool you) the enemy having units ambushing and outflanking you is not a balance issue- its actually a feature

additionally, what is it for cost?
compare the molitov to the flame nade
for a 20mu difference you get: better range, and faster animation with NO drawbacks compared to the molitov EXCEPT the higher cost
for a 20mu difference on the satchel and AT nade/faust you get: more damage at the cost of less range, longer animation, ability to ACTUALLY dodge it (instead of it following you as long as they clicked) , chance of collateral damage possibly wiping your squad AND a higher cost

its not like penals can sprint at you like cons can, and even then that only works because of the homing mode...

While you make some good points. I would add that while the vast majority, If I am not wrong EVERY SINGLE OTHER, snare has breathing room in regards to not being an instant engine cripple. It often takes 2 snares to bind a full health tank while the penal satchel takes out 1/4 of a full health tanks HP. HUGE game changer when landed.

While you make some good points. I would add that while the vast majority, If I am not wrong EVERY SINGLE OTHER, snare has breathing room in regards to not being an instant engine cripple. It often takes 2 snares to bind a full health tank while the penal satchel takes out 1/4 of a full health tanks HP. HUGE game changer when landed.

Which is why its harder to use. I preferred it being an actual skill shot, but currently its as close as can be while still actually working. You need to get closer and stay longer AND pay more, i think that is more than fair.

Which is why its harder to use. I preferred it being an actual skill shot, but currently its as close as can be while still actually working. You need to get closer and stay longer AND pay more, i think that is more than fair.

Ehhh

While it may have fallen out of favor I still use Guard Motor for the Guard AT and the button combined with penal sachel is frankly easy to use.

Ehhh

While it may have fallen out of favor I still use Guard Motor for the Guard AT and the button combined with penal sachel is frankly easy to use.

Now were talking about multiple units and a pile of munitions. Thats combined arms(ish) territory. If you need 600+mp and over over 150mu is it REALLY too easy to use? You could get the effect more cost effectivly by using a captured pak and its stun shot, or slamming a tank with ram and then satcheling it (which ive done multiple times before the AT satchel)

Just don't YOLO your tanks, think of it how Allies have to be wary of Panzerfausts and you'll be fine, ok? :3

While you make some good points. I would add that while the vast majority, If I am not wrong EVERY SINGLE OTHER, snare has breathing room in regards to not being an instant engine cripple. It often takes 2 snares to bind a full health tank while the penal satchel takes out 1/4 of a full health tanks HP. HUGE game changer when landed.

Sure, it takes 2 non-satchel snares, but those snares are also significantly cheaper and have a much longer range and won't cancel, and they don't have 4 second fuses. People always say stuff like jt/ele being slow justifies their power, so AT satchel power is justified by being slow, short-ranged, dodgeable, and having the potential to drive to safety or at least to covering units in the literal four seconds it takes to detonate. You don't even have any reason to shove axis tanks that close to penals anyway, except maybe flanking an allied heavy, which doesn't happen very often.

IMO AT Satchels should've been locked behind a fuel upgrade ala sticky bombs.

In fact, normal satchels and probably demos would've been better locked behind a global fuel upgrade as well.

PTRS rifles, for penals, guards, or conscripts, likewise would've been best remaining doctrinal.

IMO AT Satchels should've been locked behind a fuel upgrade ala sticky bombs.

In fact, normal satchels and probably demos would've been better locked behind a global fuel upgrade as well.

PTRS rifles, for penals, guards, or conscripts, likewise would've been best remaining doctrinal.

Wasn't that how this whole issue arose in the first place though? I mean, people complaining about lack of non-doc t1 vehicle counters? Which, IMO, is silly because that was the vulnerability in exchange for the power of t1 openings, and like half of soviet commanders have guards anyway.

Wasn't that how this whole issue arose in the first place though? I mean, people complaining about lack of non-doc t1 vehicle counters? Which, IMO, is silly because that was the vulnerability in exchange for the power of t1 openings, and like half of soviet commanders have guards anyway.

I think that the issue was your only AT as the soviet without spending fuel was the zis, which, while a damn fine AT gun was vulnerable to kiting or diving with light vehicles (especially since cutting the balls off the maxim with like 5 nerfs in a row)

Tbh i think the soviet would function better as a linear tech and ost as a 1/2-3-4 style faction but ohwell..

Also i think putting guards (2 ptrs or 2 dp, option to also get the other when t3 is built) into t1 and making penals (sans ptrs) into the doctrines would have been a better option seeing as guards are effective, flexible infantry without the outright power of penals (also then you have hand AT and penals just FEEL like a doctrinal unit... )

But here we are...

I have been hit by At satchel, maybe 5 or 6 times. I have lost a p4 on two separate occasions, although in one instance that p4 was going to die anyway. I have no recollection of loosing a game and thinking afterwards it was a satchel that swayed the outcome.

Furthermore, please desist with the idea that satchels are only a risk to people yolo'ing across the map with their tanks. I stated earlier that 75% of the time satchels were no real risk. I would concede that that figure could be much higher but did not want to have the argument that the ability is rarely successful so it is justified. The ability is one of opportunity and as such may not be used at all, or given the right circumstances it may drastically swing the momentum of a game. That is my issue. It has the ability to swing the game and as axis you have to be permanently on guard against an ability that only cost 45 muni.

again, "i made a mistake and the enemy hurt me" isnt a solid basis for balance
its like "i clicked beside the cover not behind it and my guys died, can you make enemy deal less damage"
or "i drove over a mine and the enemy happened to have an AT gun there and i was heavily punished"
you are supposed to support your armour in this game (dont let the usf and brit players fool you) the enemy having units ambushing and outflanking you is not a balance issue- its actually a feature

I am well aware that tanks require support and scouting by infantry, but every single engagement cannot be carried out in that manner. Further more, I also see many top 50 players get hit with demos, and satchel cheese so stop with this being a purely l2p issue. Much of what you say is true, but you are ignoring the times when satchels do succeed, and that seems to be the basis of your justification.

"Its a rarely achieved ability so the damage should be higher"

IMO :

If the ability cost more that would be better or
If the ability didn't return your muni when cancelled then that would be better or
If it require tech that would be better or
If it didn't cause instant engine damage on most full health tanks that would be better or
If it wasn't available to every penal squad that would be better.

The biggest issue is, if a tank is outflanked or immobilised/engine damage or gone retard with pathing then there is literally no way you can prevent a penal from delivering his satchel largely due to the six man squad. Ofc they cannot walk though entire axis army or stand next to a KT or vetted vehicles without extreme risk but they certainly can press forward under fire for much longer than most other units in the game. Don't even get me started on "For mother russia"

Every game against soviets right now is just ughhhh. Satchels, At satchels and demos are just every where. Squad wipe abilities that are that prevalent in a game is just shit to play against especially since they are all tech free and accompanied by penal cheese and Dskha cheese.

As i said earlier it a QOL thing rather than balance.

Wasn't that how this whole issue arose in the first place though? I mean, people complaining about lack of non-doc t1 vehicle counters? Which, IMO, is silly because that was the vulnerability in exchange for the power of t1 openings, and like half of soviet commanders have guards anyway.

It depends on what you mean by how this whole issue arose.

It wasn't about a lack of non-doc T1 vehicle counters. It arose because Penals were too powerful in the early game in the sense that Guards could reliably counter either Axis faction's first attempts to utilize their tech. And THAT situation arose out of attempts to make T1 more viable by buffing up penals.

But the real issue with the Soviets is, and always has been, conscripts and T2. The focus on Penals and T1 is, and I am assuming this, entirely a result of office politics.

Also i think putting guards (2 ptrs or 2 dp, option to also get the other when t3 is built) into t1 and making penals (sans ptrs) into the doctrines would have been a better option seeing as guards are effective, flexible infantry without the outright power of penals (also then you have hand AT and penals just FEEL like a doctrinal unit... )

But here we are...

Yeah they do. My favorite solution was way back when they were 270 manpower. They were kind of a terrible unit that only had flamethrowers and satchels going for them. To me this was the PERFECT unit for doctrines. A 0cp penal call-in instead of 2cp guards worked great because they were essentially an analogue to assault grens: situational units that didn't scale as your main army unit.

And having guards as a stock unit just... felt right.

This replay demonstrates At satchels being used numerous times. I hope this dispels the myth that only noobs get caught out with satchels as both these players are top 25.

I have no opinion if satchels sway the outcome of this game.

•  
  

  1

  VS

  Burmie

  DonnieChan

  intense game on crossroads

  by: DonnieChan map: Crossroads

  3

  -

Replay is also worth watching regardless of opinions on At satchels.

This replay demonstrates At satchels being used numerous times. I hope this dispels the myth that only noobs get caught out with satchels as both these players are top 25.

I have no opinion if satchels sway the outcome of this game.

•  
  

  1

  VS

  Burmie

  DonnieChan

  intense game on crossroads

  by: DonnieChan map: Crossroads

  3

  -

Replay is also worth watching regardless of opinions on At satchels.

On this thread, it's been said that you get at satchel'd when you screw up (or pathing goes bonkers but that's it's own issue) much more than players being noobs. IMO, since there's so many caveats to its power (short range, cancels if target goes out of said tiny range, slowish animation compared to at hand grenades or faust, expensive-ish), the only reason you ever get your vehicle satchel'd outside of those two instances is when the opponent clearly outplays you, which isn't a problem.

Sidenote: I bet at satchels are hilariously op at lower levels of play lol.

outside of those two instances is when the opponent clearly outplays you, which isn't a problem.

This applies to each and every ability, unit and situation in the game that has ever existed

This applies to each and every ability, unit and situation in the game that has ever existed

Remember commandos at release? Mg42 smgs coming out of camouflage doesn't take much work to make work, so I wouldn't really consider that "outplaying" to win an engagement. Or ele/jt in live version that basically get to reign over the (teamgame) battlefield uncountered unless like half the allied team throws their whole armies at it and the axis player screws up so hard that they might as well let their dog play. Or dshka, with the shortest setup/teardown time in the game, really good dps, the fastest suppression out of all mgs, and a 6 man team that can also use AP rounds and sprint. All these units are/were beatable, but it took/takes inordinate amounts of effort. With penal satchels, you literally just have to reverse, even if the animation is already playing. You are right, but there's varying degrees of its applicability.