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Company of Heroes 2 Not so Balanced US Forces need real Buff

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10 Sep 2017, 22:37 PM
#101
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



Fun fact that Skys only took and discussed THAT single point over my whole post.


More than half of your post was responding to an argument I didn't make. I never said anything about a .50 never being able to kill a luchs. I said from the beginning it was possible, just not likely. I asked for a replay of you doing it, and that shouldn't be hard since its such a "viable counter". I believe it could certainly happen if the player controlling the luchs is asleep at the wheel.

Your situation for snaring and AP rounding a luchs to death would require the luchs to be completely unsupported, and it would have little trouble wiping the .50 cal crew btw, it's only 4 dudes after all.
10 Sep 2017, 22:54 PM
#102
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



More than half of your post was responding to an argument I didn't make. I never said anything about a .50 never being able to kill a luchs. I said from the beginning it was possible, just not likely. I asked for a replay of you doing it, and that shouldn't be hard since its such a "viable counter". I believe it could certainly happen if the player controlling the luchs is asleep at the wheel.

Your situation for snaring and AP rounding a luchs to death would require the luchs to be completely unsupported, and it would have little trouble wiping the .50 cal crew btw, it's only 4 dudes after all.


Yeah it's strage, i have always ready saved replays because i'm a medium, too bad i didn't manage to foresee i'd have needed it today :foreveralone:

No it doesn't, just require your infantry to force off enemy one
10 Sep 2017, 23:15 PM
#103
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

The 50 cal is terrible against luchs and should not be used to counter one. You should try it out in cheat mod.

My test had an immobile luchs, with the main gun destroyed, versus the 50 cal. The 50 cal took a whole minute to kill it.
11 Sep 2017, 02:09 AM
#104
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

The .50 cal can at worst make an area unattractive for the Luchs, and at best destroy it.

Every Lt tier unit is mobile and soft counters vehicles and infantry, every Captain tier unit is specialized for one thing. (Stuart would specialize as a tank/AV support unit at least by design imo.)

USF is sometimes unfun to play because they're predicated on aggressive mobile infantry play into a light vehicle every fucking game. They seem unbalanced lategame because of a lack of viable lategame units outside of T3 and T0.

Rifles should trade AT nade with a tweaked RE volley fire, and AT nades should be a passive inside fighting positions. Weaker, more durable rifles with vet 1 suppression ability let's you continually apply pressure without taking and giving MP, and rifles huddled in a pit lobbing AT grenades at Panzers conjures up good images of The Bulge. New rifles imo:

6 men, 50 MP per man for 300 MP
Lower Garand accuracy at long to mid range by .1-.2, and decrease RA by -.15.
Vet 1 ability "Assault Fire", squad inflicts suppression and increased rate of fire but is fatigued after.

M15 should be replaced by tweaked Greyhound or M3 HT imo, make Majors recon sweep function as air superiority to cover AA.



11 Sep 2017, 06:50 AM
#105
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

Maybe try 1v1 Lusch vs .50 cal that garrison in tough building, little.50 might wreck poor Lusch into scrap Keepo.
11 Sep 2017, 09:50 AM
#106
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

The 50 cal is terrible against luchs and should not be used to counter one. You should try it out in cheat mod.

My test had an immobile luchs, with the main gun destroyed, versus the 50 cal. The 50 cal took a whole minute to kill it.


With AP rounds ?
Way too much time, are you sure.
It's usually 2 bursts on snared luchs and three on normal.
11 Sep 2017, 14:07 PM
#107
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

So a .50 would kill faster a Luch than a Atgun. Interesting.
11 Sep 2017, 18:48 PM
#108
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



With AP rounds ?
Way too much time, are you sure.
It's usually 2 bursts on snared luchs and three on normal.
11 Sep 2017, 18:51 PM
#109
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

Yes, with ap rounds. There are some things you left unaccounted for Like: time between bursts, reload, shots fired per busrt, etc

You can test this in cheat mod. My tests gave the 50 cal the best case scenario (luchs was unable to move and could not fire back). If i enabled the luchs main gun, it would destroy the 50 cal very easily.
12 Sep 2017, 04:03 AM
#110
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

Meanwhile MG34s AP rounds are quietly crying in a corner.
12 Sep 2017, 06:04 AM
#111
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Meanwhile MG34s AP rounds are quietly crying in a corner.


MG34 comes in T0 and OKW engineer has healing.
12 Sep 2017, 12:09 PM
#112
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

Meanwhile MG34s AP rounds are quietly crying in a corner.

That's more of an mg34 issue in general.
12 Sep 2017, 12:32 PM
#113
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2



That's not true at all, get your fact straight.

20/(16/55) is 68 bullets in average.

Since you want too be accurate and are so fond of "empirical evidences" (can you please list those ?) let's check actual 50 cal ROF.

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m2hb_50cal_mp

50 cal fires 5.88 bullets per seconds, and if it takes 68 bullets to kill a full health luchs, than it kills a full health luchs in 11.56 seconds.

The 50 cal used with snares is an extremely viable luchs counter.

"...the fact that he would claim that even with the numbers that he cited is...willfully ignorant at best..."
I translated my liutenent builds experience into the discussion, supporting it with proper stats...

And apparently it fires 8-9(?) bullets per burst, with 3 seconds in between bursts at max range. So it takes around 1.5 seconds to fire off a burst, and 3 seconds in between each burst. Since it takes 68 bullets on average (yeah, I calculated that wrong, not sure how, but thank you for correcting me) to destroy a luchs, you're looking at around 8 bursts to destroy a luchs. Thats 7 * (1.5 + 3.0) + 1.5 seconds to destroy a luchs (no cooldown time to fire off the first burst). That 33 seconds to destroy a luchs, not even counting the time it takes for the reload you have to do once you activate ap rounds or the reloads you'll have to do afterwards, or the initial aim time. I don't quite see how you could argue that the .50 counters a luchs when it takes more than 30 seconds on average to destroy one.

For perspective, the M1 AT gun takes about 8 seconds to destroy a luchs, not counting aim time. If the luchs has already taken 100 damage from a snare, it only takes 4 seconds. I could factor in accuracy, but whether or not the shots would actually land is not honestly that relevant overall because players always play around the ~30% chance that all shots land. You counter the luchs with the just the threat that its possible (and honestly pretty likely) to destroy it in 8 seconds.

Tl;dr: The m1 is a counter to the luchs. You can threaten the enemy with the idea that they'll lose their luchs in 8 seconds from 60 range away. The .50 is not a counter because it requires the luchs to sit laughably close to an easily circleable weapon team for over 30 seconds, more than 4 times the time it would need to sit in front of an m1 AT gun.

Side note: another technicality that you can't model with stats is the fact that if you circle a .50 with your luchs, even if he predicts your movement and gets you back in the arc (maybe you got AT naded), youre taking maybe 3-4 bullets before you get back out, which is around 20 damage (once you consider penetration vs armor, of course). When trying to circle an m1 at gun, if you mess up, you take 160 damage. Also, the m1 at gun's crew gets heavy cover, making it much riskier and take much longer to decrew it. Finally, if you decrew the at gun, then he can recrew it and go back to firing it and forcing you to circle it again. If you decrew the .50, i'm *pretty sure* that he has to spend more munitions again AND go through another reload before he can begin damaging your luchs again.
12 Sep 2017, 14:00 PM
#114
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

If one is talking theoretical the DPS of the 0.50 (0-40 range) AP vs Luch front is:

17.27 17.27 12.34 8.64 6.10
so the time to kill is :
23.16 23.16 32.42 46.31 65.54
secs

or if it hit by an AT grenade:
17.37 17.37 24.31 34.73 49.15
secs

If for any reason Luch exposes side rear armor things become quite different:
DPS
27.14 27.14 19.39 13.57 9.59

time
14.74 14.74 20.63 29.47 41.71

or hit with AT
11.06 11.06 15.47 22.10 31.28

The 0.50 can destroy a Luch under certain circumstance and the Luch has a hard time forcing a 0.50 out a building.

Keep in mind also that luch has lowest modifier vs unit in cover/garrison and has to move really close vs units in green cover.
12 Sep 2017, 15:15 PM
#115
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2017, 14:00 PMVipper
If one is talking theoretical the DPS of the 0.50 AP vs Luch front is:

17.27 17.27 12.34 8.64 6.10
so the time to kill is :
23.16 23.16 32.42 46.31 65.54
secs

or if it hit by an AT grenade:
17.37 17.37 24.31 34.73 49.15
secs

If for any reason Luch exposes side rear armor things become quite different:
DPS
27.14 27.14 19.39 13.57 9.59

time
14.74 14.74 20.63 29.47 41.71

or hit with AT
11.06 11.06 15.47 22.10 31.28

The 0.50 can destroy a Luch under certain circumstance and the Luch has a hard time forcing a 0.50 out a building.

Keep in mind also that luch has lowest modifier vs unit in cover/garrison and has to move really close vs units in green cover.

Thanks for those stats.

The .50 can do well in certain situations against the luchs, but these situations occur so inconsistently and infrequently that theyre not worth considering when when trying to decide on a build, though I know you were just providing the numbers, not arguing the .50 vs the luchs.

Even though the luchs dors have a hard time forcing a .50 out of garrisons, the issue there is that diving a garrison with a .50 in it is (in most early mid game situations, so no captain) a zero risk maneuver for the okw player that has a high reward. The luchs circles the garrison if its unsupported, wiping the mg in the building, forcing it to vacate, or wiping it when it gets out and giving you a free .50. If its supported, you tank the at nade and reverse out of range while tanking the ap rounds, then repair the luchs in ~10-15 seconds, having drained the enemy ~50 munitions and ~50 manpower.
12 Sep 2017, 16:15 PM
#116
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Even though the luchs dors have a hard time forcing a .50 out of garrisons, ...

I would avoid trying to force a 0.50 out of garrison the same way I would avoid trying to counter a Luch with 0.50.
12 Sep 2017, 19:46 PM
#117
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2017, 14:00 PMVipper
If one is talking theoretical the DPS of the 0.50 (0-40 range) AP vs Luch front is:

17.27 17.27 12.34 8.64 6.10
so the time to kill is :
23.16 23.16 32.42 46.31 65.54
secs

or if it hit by an AT grenade:
17.37 17.37 24.31 34.73 49.15
secs

If for any reason Luch exposes side rear armor things become quite different:
DPS
27.14 27.14 19.39 13.57 9.59

time
14.74 14.74 20.63 29.47 41.71

or hit with AT
11.06 11.06 15.47 22.10 31.28

The 0.50 can destroy a Luch under certain circumstance and the Luch has a hard time forcing a 0.50 out a building.

Keep in mind also that luch has lowest modifier vs unit in cover/garrison and has to move really close vs units in green cover.


Thx for the stats.
12 Sep 2017, 22:23 PM
#118
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2017, 16:15 PMVipper

I would avoid trying to force a 0.50 out of garrison the same way I would avoid trying to counter a Luch with 0.50.

If it's alone you could circle it with the luchs pretty easily but other than that you might take some damage.
12 Sep 2017, 22:37 PM
#119
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



MG34 comes in T0 and OKW engineer has healing.


Mg34 requires a truck to be built, so it really isn't t0, the same way the king tiger isn't t0.
12 Sep 2017, 22:38 PM
#120
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911


That's more of an mg34 issue in general.


Yup

Relic: Lets just divide the damage in half because it has too little suppression.
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