Relic wanted feedback for CoH1 vs CoH2

I don't want to be mean but you're wrong. Look at the top games, LoL, CSGO, Overwatch, ect, they all have thriving esports scenes. In regards to RTS, SC2 is the king with a healthy esports scene. Simply put there is a direct correlation between size of esports scene and size of profits. Last time i checked these games are real and not some "fantasy"

If people only watch games they play, I didn't know there are sooo many soccer, football, and basketball players out there. While there is a burden of knowledge to understanding a game, visually a random viewer can understand the basics. In regards to coh2, you have army men and tanks shooting at each other. Not too complex.

Lastly if we use SC1 & SC2 as a case study, you can appeal to the masses while also having a highly compepetive esports scene. The main reason why SC2 had problems with their casual scene is because they gutted custom games & mods. Even still SC2 is kicking COH2's ass. It ain't even a comparison. Back to CoH2, it is very easy to get a 4v4 casual game going so there is 0 reason why creating a balance esport game would kill or hurt the 4v4s. The balance from 1v1s would trickle down, creating an overall balanced game.

Balance doesn't trickle down that way, or at least not necessarily. Throughout CoH2s lifecycle, 1v1s have usually been balanced-ish. But because that balance was built around clock-dominance, it really screwed up 3s and 4s. A strong allied early game became a brutal game-ending nightmare at the upper levels of AT. Strong German late game became nearly insurmountable auto-wins after 30-35 minutes, especially below that tippy-top.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!

Despite community manager kyle and other Relic employees coming to San Fran for GDC & other business, we've never talked about balanced or how to make an esports scene. Despite myself being one of coh2's top players and streamers, we've never talked. Despite my decade worth of experience in esports, including a specialty in rts esports scenes, we've never talked.

Relic knows best and asking randos on their official forums (since we all know everyone hangs out there and not coh2org) will obviously give them better advice than coh2's top tier players and community members. You'd think they would be humbled from DoW3's flop but alas. Relic would be wise to heed what philosopher Lamar once said, "bitch sit down, be humble."

The biggest sin is Relic is asking what the community thinks. A true visionary TELLS you what to think. However when you can't get basic balanced right, does it really matter if you have a visionary vision.

I understand the "old guards" being standoffish but what's your problem?

because relic did not personally step in when barton was trolling you when you were trolling hans?

because relic did not put out red carpet for you instead of making a public forum for suggestions?

How do you spot a visionary? high rank? there are plenty of high rankers in this forum who are the biggest fanboys and toxic. Maybe it is time for you to check the size of your head.

Despite myself being one of coh2's top players and streamers, we've never talked. Despite my decade worth of experience in esports, including a specialty in rts esports scenes, we've never talked.

Despite community manager kyle and other Relic employees coming to San Fran for GDC & other business, we've never talked about balanced or how to make an esports scene. Despite myself being one of coh2's top players and streamers, we've never talked. Despite my decade worth of experience in esports, including a specialty in rts esports scenes, we've never talked.

Despite myself being one of coh2's top players and streamers, we've never talked. Despite my decade worth of experience in esports, including a specialty in rts esports scenes, we've never talked.

ok

Who is this shadowwada guy in the first place?

I understand the "old guards" being standoffish but what's your problem?

because relic did not personally step in when barton was trolling you when you were trolling hans?

because relic did not put out red carpet for you instead of making a public forum for suggestions?

How do you spot a visionary? high rank? there are plenty of high rankers in this forum who are the biggest fanboys and toxic. Maybe it is time for you to check the size of your head.

It is my professional opinion that Relic is an incompetent & just bad dev studio. My problem is Relic had/has the chance to make CoH2 great and have a growing esports scene. Instead they ignore every top community member who tried to help, which I wouldn't have as much of a problem with if they actually succeeded. However CoH2 & DoW3 shows how incompetent Relic is. DoW3 needed the surrender button hotfixed in, first patch took a month and was delayed a week, poor fundamental balance design and poor overall balance. DoW3 is brand new but suffering from all the same problems CoH2 suffers with.

On a personal level, I don't like Relic because of their treatment of the community. We have had sooooo many people who tried and who continue to try to make something of CoH2 and our esports scene but Relic ignores them and/or doesn't support them. Speaking for myself, I received 0 support for my stream even though I was one of our few major streamers. This is especially true during the interim period between ESL & Warpaint since no one was streaming or playing during that time.

On my visionary point, you misinterpreted it. I'm saying there isn't any visionary person at Relic since if there was, they wouldn't be asking what randoms on the forums think because they would already know. Riot doesn't have surveys asking what people kind of champs and item updates they want. Blizzard didnt have a community powwow asking what people wanted for Overwatch. Even if there was a great forward thinking dev, it wouldn't matter since they can't even get basic balance patches out on time. Lastly it doesn't matter if there is a visionary in the community since they can't do anything because Relic believes they know best and disregards the community.

I don't want to comment on the Barton situation but Relic owed the community an official response. Its one thing for Barton to receive 0 punishment but with a divided community, they needed to explain their ruling. It their job so is it really arrogant to expect some type of response? Real Talk: it didnt matter who was in the right or wrong since community manager Kyle didn't like me so he ruled against me and went as far as to rig my warpaint bracket by putting me at 32 out of 32 seed vs Barton (It should be noted the brackets were leaked to certain community members, including players in the tourny. If a leaked & rigged brackets happened in a real esport, there would be an investigation. Another example of Relic's mismanagement & apathy).

Professionally and personally, I didn't want to waste any more of my time with Relic. Professionally because I know they can't make a good game & esports scene. Personally because I don't like them.

As for trolling Hans, we are friends. I've never done anything negatively malicious towards Hans. It is disingenuous to equate my relationship with Hans to anything negative.

Balance doesn't trickle down that way, or at least not necessarily. Throughout CoH2s lifecycle, 1v1s have usually been balanced-ish. But because that balance was built around clock-dominance, it really screwed up 3s and 4s. A strong allied early game became a brutal game-ending nightmare at the upper levels of AT. Strong German late game became nearly insurmountable auto-wins after 30-35 minutes, especially below that tippy-top.

Even before the game came out, the frontline network did a 1v1 tourny that showed how OP clown cars were so 1v1s were never balanced.

As for your specific example, it is Relic's poor implementation of asymmetrical balance. These fundamental systems need to reworked which is one of the reasons why they never touched it; it is too hard to pull up the foundation and rebuild it. Look at the DLC factions. USF is a prime example of shitty asymmetrical balanced: No T0 mortar (until miragefla got it in the game), No non-doctrinal mines (besides m20 that doesn't last past 20 mins & on a weak tier), no non-doctrinal late game arty, no non-doctrinal late game armor, no non-doctrinal flamer, weak AT gun, weak handheld AT, ect. Firstly you can't go every commander in the game so you're going to be lacking major tools in the toolkit. As for the asymmetrical balance, Germans have the best armor, AT guns, and handheld AT shreks. Germans should have the best armor while weaker AT and allies should be strong AT and weaker armor.

Lastly stop looking at Relic & CoH2 to disprove what every top tier game & esport is able to achieve. Obviously balance wont trickle down in CoH2 since they can't even get balanced enough as is. LoL, Overwatch, SC2, DOTA2, Smite, ect all have very balanced games at the competitive level as well as very popular games for the casual audience.

It is my professional opinion that Relic is an incompetent & just bad dev studio. My problem is Relic had/has the chance to make CoH2 great and have a growing esports scene. Instead they ignore every top community member who tried to help, which I wouldn't have as much of a problem with if they actually succeeded. However CoH2 & DoW3 shows how incompetent Relic is. DoW3 needed the surrender button hotfixed in, first patch took a month and was delayed a week, poor fundamental balance design and poor overall balance. DoW3 is brand new but suffering from all the same problems CoH2 suffers with.

On a personal level, I don't like Relic because of their treatment of the community. We have had sooooo many people who tried and who continue to try to make something of CoH2 and our esports scene but Relic ignores them and/or doesn't support them. Speaking for myself, I received 0 support for my stream even though I was one of our few major streamers. This is especially true during the interim period between ESL & Warpaint since no one was streaming or playing during that time.

On my visionary point, you misinterpreted it. I'm saying there isn't any visionary person at Relic since if there was, they wouldn't be asking what randoms on the forums think because they would already know. Riot doesn't have surveys asking what people kind of champs and item updates they want. Blizzard didnt have a community powwow asking what people wanted for Overwatch. Even if there was a great forward thinking dev, it wouldn't matter since they can't even get basic balance patches out on time. Lastly it doesn't matter if there is a visionary in the community since they can't do anything because Relic believes they know best and disregards the community.

I don't want to comment on the Barton situation but Relic owed the community an official response. Its one thing for Barton to receive 0 punishment but with a divided community, they needed to explain their ruling. It their job so is it really arrogant to expect some type of response? Real Talk: it didnt matter who was in the right or wrong since community manager Kyle didn't like me so he ruled against me and went as far as to rig my warpaint bracket by putting me at 32 out of 32 seed vs Barton (It should be noted the brackets were leaked to certain community members, including players in the tourny. If a leaked & rigged brackets happened in a real esport, there would be an investigation. Another example of Relic's mismanagement & apathy).

Professionally and personally, I didn't want to waste any more of my time with Relic. Professionally because I know they can't make a good game & esports scene. Personally because I don't like them.

As for trolling Hans, we are friends. I've never done anything negatively malicious towards Hans. It is disingenuous to equate my relationship with Hans to anything negative.

fair points. i was against criticism without constructiveness. you raise good points and all we can do, really, is to give relic good suggestions and cross fingers. if relic does not change and we get CoH3 that does as bad as DoW3, just move on. Most of us does not have reason to be so vicious.

Even before the game came out, the frontline network did a 1v1 tourny that showed how OP clown cars were so 1v1s were never balanced.

As for your specific example, it is Relic's poor implementation of asymmetrical balance. These fundamental systems need to reworked which is one of the reasons why they never touched it; it is too hard to pull up the foundation and rebuild it. Look at the DLC factions. USF is a prime example of shitty asymmetrical balanced: No T0 mortar (until miragefla got it in the game), No non-doctrinal mines (besides m20 that doesn't last past 20 mins & on a weak tier), no non-doctrinal late game arty, no non-doctrinal late game armor, no non-doctrinal flamer, weak AT gun, weak handheld AT, ect. Firstly you can't go every commander in the game so you're going to be lacking major tools in the toolkit. As for the asymmetrical balance, Germans have the best armor, AT guns, and handheld AT shreks. Germans should have the best armor while weaker AT and allies should be strong AT and weaker armor.

Lastly stop looking at Relic & CoH2 to disprove what every top tier game & esport is able to achieve. Obviously balance wont trickle down in CoH2 since they can't even get balanced enough as is. LoL, Overwatch, SC2, DOTA2, Smite, ect all have very balanced games at the competitive level as well as very popular games for the casual audience.

Goood. Gooood. Let the butthurt flow through you.

PS: This is a way of saying the world dont revolve around you.
If you didnt like something so much, why bother staying with it?
Its like me staying with my abusive ex and then complaning to all my friends she beat me with the spatula

Relic knows best and asking randos on their official forums (since we all know everyone hangs out there and not coh2org) will obviously give them better advice than coh2's top tier players and community members. You'd think they would be humbled from DoW3's flop but alas. Relic would be wise to heed what philosopher Lamar once said, "bitch sit down, be humble."

The biggest sin is Relic is asking what the community thinks. A true visionary TELLS you what to think. However when you can't get basic balanced right, does it really matter if you have a visionary vision.

If I was to compare CoH2.org and official, the official one is better.

In CoH2.org, it is nothing more than base of player consuming hours to get good at 1v1, aka competitive players. You get bad stats, or just team player? Your voice is nothing.
In official, I found many kind of players, including competitive and casual players. Everyone is the same.

If Relic are going to sell their game, they must target the number of players first.
After that, then they can balance the game according to small competitive audience.

The great failure of DoW3 begin when Relic try to appease those competitive players of Starcraft. This is terrible because casual players will feel that they are betrayed and either not buy or leave after they cannot bear it.
The result as everyone can see, the sale is fall to bottom, and number of online player is equal to a dead game. Even competitive player struggle to find player to play with.

It is my professional opinion that Relic is an incompetent & just bad dev studio. My problem is Relic had/has the chance to make CoH2 great and have a growing esports scene. Instead they ignore every top community member who tried to help, which I wouldn't have as much of a problem with if they actually succeeded.

This.
All respect for A_E and stormless and their efforts to make this game have an 'esport scene', but too freakin' late (not their fault). So many good guys have left the scene cause of 0 support in the early / mid stages.

It had the potential, but was ignored for too long. Relic was so freakin' incompetent in seeing opportunities, damn. I'm not even talking about my organisation, but look at SNF or OCF. If these events were properly supported, or even just a bit supported.. If they had listened to Cruzz or other ppl who know the game better than their selves.

No;
Early support, Optimization, Transparency, Top-community engagement and just in general early tournaments.
Failed.

Oh, and the 'new' official forums came 20y too late. And I'm not even being salty or vicious as I moved to a completely other scene. Just giving my two cents.

GL with COH3.

e: Ok I'm salty

Goood. Gooood. Let the butthurt flow through you.

PS: This is a way of saying the world dont revolve around you.
If you didnt like something so much, why bother staying with it?
Its like me staying with my abusive ex and then complaning to all my friends she beat me with the spatula

He's merely stating good points bro.
Shame you can't seem to appreciate feedback of people who have been here far longer than you.
But I guess you don't care / cba / ccl / whatever.

I could write a book on this topic. But after the way Relic burned through its greatest community contributors without any consideration or remorse (like Tommy, 12azor, IpKai, etc.), why should I bother?

+1

This thread developed from a happy-joy-joy thread into a proper saltmine. Do we really need this lads?

This thread developed from a happy-joy-joy thread into a proper saltmine. Do we really need this lads?

There can never be too much salt John.
Never.

He's merely stating good points bro.
Shame you can't seem to appreciate feedback of people who have been here far longer than you.

Yes. Shame.
Maybe I am just too tired and unheard myself to care.
Not to mention the whole mentality of "GTFO casual once a-month-game noob" mentality of this forum has left me jaded.
I digress.

Back on topic, I think we have all established, even if we give relic our feedback, chances are it will be pissed away, much like the feedback prior.

This thread developed from a happy-joy-joy thread into a proper saltmine. Do we really need this lads?

People will always need salt. Besides, what am I to make my margaritas with if I didnt have salt?

There can never be too much salt John.
Never.

Lol +1