Modding team should provide replays for each change

In my opinion, the future balance team should provide replays for each unit they deem imbalanced. Replays from both before their change applied and after that.

This way we can dilute any useless community feedback and walls of texts from all sides. So when a community member opposes and complains about the proposed change, he could be simply directed to the related replay.Is he raging about penals , for example? You cite the replay which was used as the basis of balance desicion.

GG TheMachine already did that once https://www.coh2.org/replay/57873/piospam-not-so-op-relic-preview-v1-1-g3


So before uploading the mod they should provide;

• At least one relplay, where the modder indicates the current performance problems, and why any nerfs/or buffs are needed.
  
  
• A minimum of one replay against real equally skilled players, where the player proves that his suggested changes;
  
  • Improve the overall balance,
    
  • Does not render the unit useless or unattractive in any way
    
    
  
  
  
  This is much more convincing than adding a few words like "we buffed it cause we felt like it" as the description for proposed changes.
  

No need to be so specific but something like: "Here. Take a look at how the games are been played on the mod" is fine.

In that case, anyone suggesting balance changes should also provide replays / videos to support their ideas.

^ Not a bad idea. It is a two-way sword

Bump.

Since things went as I predicted Show Spoiler, It would be nice if the official relic balance team (Smith/FLA) could provide us with replays supporting their claims.

We could also decide to not listen to you anymore. The mod team has been doing a good job so far and I say that even if I don't agree with all the change proposed.

We could also decide to not listen to you anymore. The mod team has been doing a good job so far and I say that even if I don't agree with all the change proposed.

Do you consider what I just said as illogical?


If you consider a unit OP/UP out of the blue and you deem a nerf/buff is necessary, then please provide a replay and prove your claim.

Also provide another replay from your mod, with your suggested changes/fixes applied, so we could review the efficiency and practicality of your solution.

So months and months of Automatch games where unit relationships play out and where top ranked players who know the game inside and out like DevM offer feedback directly to the mod team isn't good enough? Not to mention the hours of testing they themselves do? It's not like you can distill a balance problem/decision in a single replay as the greater relationships between factions and units always has multiple layers of context. It's pointless extra work for them to make replays just to justify their hard work to any casual player who doesn't know the game intimately and would take away time from perfecting the patch.

Look, all of these guys are experienced and know the game and Relic obviously trusts them to make changes and offers their own feedback and shuts down anything Relic does't like. (Many, many changes didn't make the cut). How about this: You play the official balance mod and send them your own replays about how a certain unit does/doesn't need changed and if you make a good case then your feedback will be taken into account.

So months and months of Automatch games where unit relationships play out and where top ranked players who know the game inside and out like DevM offer feedback directly to the mod team isn't good enough? Not to mention the hours of testing they themselves do? It's not like you can distill a balance problem/decision in a single replay as the greater relationships between factions and units always has multiple layers of context. It's pointless extra work for them to make replays just to justify their hard work to any casual player who doesn't know the game intimately and would take away time from perfecting the patch.

Look, all of these guys are experienced and know the game and Relic obviously trusts them to make changes and offers their own feedback and shuts down anything Relic does't like. (Many, many changes didn't make the cut). How about this: You play the official balance mod and send them your own replays about how a certain unit does/doesn't need changed and if you make a good case then your feedback will be taken into account.

Stop abusing top players' name to give your mod credibility, this is what DevM replied to that claim;

Keep in mind that even though feedback is given in the end its up to miragefla and Mr Smith if they want to incorporate what has been suggested since opinions on how the game should be balanced differ a lot.

And no. We are not the ones who should be testing some randomly thouht-out ideas for you. Also we are not the ones to provide replays to support your claims of units being OP/UP in live game.

It's pointless extra work for them to make replays just to justify their hard work to any casual player who doesn't know the game intimately and would take away time from perfecting the patch.

It isn't pointless, but necessary. For example, if you think the elefant is live game is OP, then post a automatch replay to prove it. Otherwise it's an skill/IQ isssue and not a blance one.

It isn't pointless, but necessary. For example, if you think the elefant is live game is OP, then post a automatch replay to prove it. Otherwise it's an skill/IQ isssue and not a blance one.

Are you even playing 3vs3, 4vs4 allies?^^ Do you have fun to watch your tanks dying per 2 hits?

And pls can you update your profil with your playercard.

Are you even playing 3vs3, 4vs4 allies?^^ Do you have fun to watch your tanks dying per 2 hits?

Why don't people utilize infantry AT and indirect fire against Elefants and JTs?

Any map where an elefant or JT can be flanked is not a good map for elefants and JTs.

Any map where an elefant or JT can be safe from easy flanks is a map where indirect fire can perpetually saturate the elefant and/or JT's position. (Since they have no flanks to maneuver to. Also, unturreted vehicles, essentially by definition, are terrible at maneuvering to flanks in the first place.)

Elefants and JTs are powerless against infantry in an extreme sense.

Look, the (im)pending changes aside, this is something that has puzzled me about these recent mod-patches. These units got critical weaknesses, but arguments about them never seem to address them, like at all, from either side of the issue.

And usually my tanks aren't destroyed in '2 hits'. They usually die in one volley from multiple sources. The case is almost always that one or two of my tanks dies in one less hit than normal from taking an Elefant or JT shot. Those tanks fire so slowly that it's actually pretty damn rare that the same tank is hit twice by an Elefant or JT.

Hell a calliope barrage and a single live version jackson can wtf pwn an elefants whole position. The limiting factor is more about whether or not a surviving gren is around to faust than anything else.

Mod team is doing an excellent job. All the changes are based on logic and experience. They aren't fanboys either but rather objective and fair.

Try the mod and play all the factions, you will have a much better perceptive of the changes.

It isn't pointless, but necessary. For example, if you think the elefant is live game is OP, then post a automatch replay to prove it. Otherwise it's an skill/IQ isssue and not a blance one.

How can you prove stuff like this with a replay? Like, what would be the metric that you use for the OPness of a unit?

The unit doesn't exist in a vacuum. Regardless of how the replay would look like, you could always argue that the opponents didn't chose the proper counters or failed miserably at execution. Further, a certain unit might be totally OP in one, very specific situation and underwhelming in others.

You could probably evaluate the strength of a unit if you statistically sift through tons of replays. Alas, we don't have those, at least not for 3v3 and 4v4 (the GSC replays allow some insight into what top players currently believe to be the most efficient units in 1v1).

So, the requirement for replays simply will result in nothing being done at all.

Let's face it, several of the changes are not strictly about nerfing OP units or buffing UP ones, but rather about making certain playstyles more or less viable. And people will always disagree to some extent about how the game should play out, so this is subjective to a serious extent and you won't get everybody on board 100%, regardless of what is proposed...

You know, people are doing this in their free time. They don't get money or anything. What you suggest would require a lot of time, people are usually don't want to spend and I can understand that.

IMO the modders do a great job and it is fine how they do that right now.

If by now we still need replays to tell what the major imbalances are, we are in a world of hurt.

My two cents. This game is not just for pro players and a couple of modders who are devoted to realising their idea of a 'balanced' game. I say that we should as a community get a say in what gets changed. It's probably end up being similar to what smith and miragefla are doing but that doesn't make it inconsequential. The fact that the whole community decides what kind of game they want in the future is what's more important. Instead I see a lot of the big boys on here creating changes and instead of taking on board grievances and opinions defend their changes with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I agree on what a lot of mariosilver is saying as well. So yeah, if you're going to go through all the effort of creating the mods, maybe think of showing us how they improve the game, instead of expecting us to find the justifications for the changes for you.

If by now we still need replays to tell what the major imbalances are, we are in a world of hurt.

+1

Also considering how small the balance team is, and how they do this work for free and on their own time. I doubt the community burdening them with MORE shit to do would result in the best changes they can make. If anything this falls on the community to provide replays for the modders, not the other way around.

Look, the (im)pending changes aside, this is something that has puzzled me about these recent mod-patches. These units got critical weaknesses, but arguments about them never seem to address them, like at all, from either side of the issue.

Great post as always. If the required 20 secondish for the elefant to fire two shots is not enough for someone to save his unit, then perhaps the problem is not the elefant?

And if it can two-shot mediums, that is because otherwise they would yolo-charge directly into the elefant and then circle rolf-stomp it easily.

You know, people are doing this in their free time. They don't get money or anything. What you suggest would require a lot of time, people are usually don't want to spend and I can understand that.

They are doing what they love, stop this victime mentality. What's so painful about having your visions and ideas implmented on a videogame with tens of thousands of fans and more than 5000+ active players? Isn't it perfect that you can get rid of stuff you hate and are frustrated with?

Why should you think your ideas are the ideal solutions and we should be testing them, instead of coming up with our own ideas and solutions?

IMO the modders do a great job and it is fine how they do that right now.

Opinions.

If by now we still need replays to tell what the major imbalances are, we are in a world of hurt.

So, instead, you want to make 1000 threads everyday about a imaginary, personal balance problem and eventually get what you want?

My two cents. This game is not just for pro players and a couple of modders who are devoted to realising their idea of a 'balanced' game. I say that we should as a community get a say in what gets changed. It's probably end up being similar to what smith and miragefla are doing but that doesn't make it inconsequential. The fact that the whole community decides what kind of game they want in the future is what's more important. Instead I see a lot of the big boys on here creating changes and instead of taking on board grievances and opinions defend their changes with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I agree on what a lot of mariosilver is saying as well. So yeah, if you're going to go through all the effort of creating the mods, maybe think of showing us how they improve the game, instead of expecting us to find the justifications for the changes for you.

Yes, we aren't demanding anything irrational. Though I respect people's vision, they don't have to be force fed to us.

I doubt the community burdening them with MORE shit to do would result in the best changes they can make.

"Burdening them with MORE shit to do " ? I am talking about responsibility. IF a modder claims a unit is OP/UP, and has came up with an apparent 'solution' for the claimed problem, then first he needs to convince the community that there is a problem with the unit/ability at all, and secondly he should prove the efficiency of his solution.

This is a logical demand, nothing arrogant or cruel about it!

If anything this falls on the community to provide replays for the modders, not the other way around.

So the commuinty's time is worthless while the modders' is precious.


We wasted 6 months on testing the reowrk idea for penals, which was inherently flawed. And relic just realized this finally and is now reverting/tweaking the broken bits.

...

You do understand. That there is a small group of people working on this and as far as Relic "devs" go it is the community manager communicating the changes. If you think for any second that these changes haven't been complained about and talked about, for AGES. Then you were seriously on another planet or are brand new to the game.

The "Penal" patch wasn't the only thing that was fixed and adjusted, just the most fought over and therefore the only thing anyone remembers, go back and actually read those patch notes, much more was added, AND replays were given for their decisions both by the community and the modders.

I also really enjoyed the words you put in my mouth because I disagreed with you "community time is worthless". Nice. No infact the community time is not worthless hence why I said members should participate if they want to see results. The community as a whole will get far more games and replays submitted than the small team of modders currently already working their asses off to provide the patch in the first place. So take a step down from your pedestal and help, instead of bitch.

I also really enjoy you dismissing HighFive's statement as merely "opinions" isn't that what your whole post is? Merely an opinion of what you think should be happening. I also enjoy the "victim mentality" comment.

If they are devoting their own time and resources "gratification" should be enough. Right, and now they have to play several hundred games AND post the replays for their every move? Simple math would suggest if they work the 9-5 grind with an hour transmute that would be 10 hours a day to their lives. Then lets assume they don't eat, use the bathroom, or sleep. So they have 14 hours left to, integrate the patch, test for bugs and if its working correctly AND THEN test a match and submit the replay. So if each match lasts 30 minutes, you only get 28 matches from one person with no sleep, eating, or anything else. And thats if they save their test replays when they integrate something, but hey, you're so right. They should be happy that their game of 6000 average players and do it for all for you. Let us not forget that then they have to be on the forums getting the feedback form people judging the replays. Seems totally worth it.

OR

10-30 people post 1-2 test replays and provide more than the modding team could do in a single week realistically.

Oh, and if you think we "wasted" 6 months on the last patch, I once again urge you to go read it, and see that the modders, in fact submitted replays. So wouldn't the argument be here that they were already stretched too thin as it was and thats why (in your ultimate wisdom) the patch was a failure? So now you want them to do it again?

If I disagree about some units/ ability change from this mod.
Launch CoH2.
Play the mod with friends/AI. Keep abusing spamming units/ abilities fot show how problem they are.
Save replay, upload and add comments what about the problems and maybe how to fix it.
Profit.