Volksgrenadiers

lol nano you cant really have a discussion with a guy who says things like this. the only faction that unfairly struggle vs volks is soviets (if they dont go dushka doctrine). USF and brits can handle it EASILY, if your struggling im sorry to say its a l2p issue

To be totally honest, I have issues with Volk vs Shock depending on map and such. If the Shock get close enough they will rape Volk. Even some times can have issues with blobs of Penals too. If I rush to set up a truck I can get overwhelmed by Penal blobs some times. But maybe they are l2p issues on my behalf too I dunno.

To be totally honest, I have issues with Volk vs Shock depending on map and such. If the Shock get close enough they will rape Volk. Even some times can have issues with blobs of Penals too. If I rush to set up a truck I can get overwhelmed by Penal blobs some times. But maybe they are l2p issues on my behalf too I dunno.

regarding shocks thats just map dependent but penals will wreck volks early game however, mid to lategame volks with their vet and stg will wrecks penals and thats the problem for soviets

Every allied faction has superior infantry available. Penals, Riflemen, IS

Riflemen and IS can be upgraded with BARs and Bren. Double Bren > Volks + STGs


Allies have the early game advantage, this is undeniable. Why do you want to take away the balancing concept of Axis having a late-game advantage. They only beat Penals, not BAR rifles and Bren IS.

OKW problem is not a strong lategame, but a strong early game and strong midgame now, that's the problem.

OKW problem is not a strong lategame, but a strong early game and strong midgame now, that's the problem.

strong but not over performing

So just wondering. Where's the issue here? As far as I can tell riflemen cost slightly more but as compensation are more effective fighting forces. Same goes with tommies. Penals are an exception as the compensation for getting a 300 MP long range squad right out of the gate is controlled with the fact you need to build T1.

One of the bigger issues is the fact you're starting with sturms, however the same arguement could be made for brits since they start with tommies. These squads are simply to strong to be the very first unit you start with. In the case of OKW, your sturms can immediatly go cap or apply pressure to your opponet and if it goes well you force a retreat and force off capping. Meanwhile your kubel can cap backlines. I think the armys synergy together makes them overly potent, not any one unit.

Flame nades are also an issue. Though expensive at 30 munitions, OKW doesn't have many munitions sinks as StGs are 1 time upgrades and schrecks are the lesser of the 2 SP choices. Other than that you have mines, nades and fausts and you can't use the 2 latters till after a single truck is built. It leads to a rather large munition stockpile for OKW.

So thanks to everyone for staying on topic and providing a lot of useful feedback while I was asleep (except the one or two usual shitposters)

So just wondering. Where's the issue here?
...

Good question, of course I was not saying that Volks themselves are OP units. I meant to say that their versatility and spammability give OKW a very strong early game in combination with the other OKW units (as soon as the first SWS truck hits the ground). Fuzeless flame nades, sandbags, StGs, and fausts are just too much at the 5-minute mark when SPios/Kubels are also around, and Allies also have to worry about a Luchs. Strummingbird put it very well in this regard.

Of course part of it is a L2P issue for me, I was just wondering about it because I was playing USF all day yesterday, and at my current rank I can beat Wehr 80% of the time, but lose to OKW 80% of the time. I played as OKW today and RedWings kicked my arse as USF, so I'm sure there will be some L2Ping from that replay (well, mostly he just had way better micro, but the aggressive ambulance push was nice!).

However I just felt that depending on the map, the Allies (especially USF) in reality do not have an early-game advantage anymore, which if true, is obviously not good for balance. I do not want to take away anything from OKW late-game, I don't want to take away their flame nade, or their strong vet. IMHO I think a couple of small changes or tweaks to the Volks' abilities would be fine.

I rather have panzer fussiliers towned down and their 6 pop cap fixed. Panzer fussiliers at vet 5 rape every other infantry unit...

One of the bigger issues is the fact you're starting with sturms, however the same arguement could be made for brits since they start with tommies. These squads are simply to strong to be the very first unit you start with. In the case of OKW, your sturms can immediatly go cap or apply pressure to your opponet and if it goes well you force a retreat and force off capping.

Yeah this is annoying. Not saying that it cant be countered but OKW players rushing their Sturms to your fuel/cut-off point as their first move is quite frustrating to play against. While you are busy fighting them back they have capped the entire map with their Kübel.

What if I told you that OKW is OP compared to vanilla soviets, usf or ukf without croco.

The problem is that they are facing penals + dushkas into sherman spam 8/10 times. And we all know how OP this strategy is and how much is OKW weak against instapinning hmgs and strong medium tank spam (raketten).

Once you nerf dushka and tie sherman to tier, you´ll see how good the OKW is against Soviets or USF

I dont know if Lend Lease is really that OP anymore now that everyone knows how to counter it. Aggressive OKW play with double Kübel into rushed Luchs+Puma combination is very hard to play against with Lend Lease because you dont have an AT-Gun and Penal´s PTRS + Satchel are basically useless unless the OKW player is just totally careless. You can basically drive your Luchs straight into your opponents base and rape everything if you had a good start. Then 11CP Command Panther just after the first M4C hits the field. Not sure how Lend Lease can be considered OP with such big weaknesses.

Wehrmacht has great tools for Lend Lease too. Mortar+ 222s or flame HT+ Stug3+MG42.

Lend Lease is good but at the same time very predictable.

Soviets are so bad in this patch that Penal+Dshk combinations are the only good thing you can do, so maybe that´s the reason why Axis players cry about it being OP since they keep on loosing against it and instead of blaming themselves just blame the doctrine while in reality they just got outplayed.

Of course part of it is a L2P issue for me, I was just wondering about it because I was playing USF all day yesterday, and at my current rank I can beat Wehr 80% of the time, but lose to OKW 80% of the time.

care to open a "ostheer too weak" thread?

What if I told you that OKW is OP compared to vanilla soviets, usf or ukf without croco.

The problem is that they are facing penals + dushkas into sherman spam 8/10 times. And we all know how OP this strategy is and how much is OKW weak against instapinning hmgs and strong medium tank spam (raketten).

Once you nerf dushka and tie sherman to tier, you´ll see how good the OKW is against Soviets or USF

And again no matter the reason OKW have one of the lowest win rates by far in the tournament losing not only to Soviet but also to USF and UKF.

You might want to claim that it is Soviets, USF and UKF that are OP and that OKW are UP but the fact remains that faction is no way OP since it lose on average 60% of the games.

V.G. on the other hand are OP but the whole faction should be looked at.

The magic mine trap of the soviets just rip all okw squads ez.

And again no matter the reason OKW have one of the lowest win rates by far in the tournament losing not only to Soviet but also to USF and UKF.

You might want to claim that it is Soviets, USF and UKF that are OP and that OKW are UP but the fact remains that faction is no way OP since it lose on average 60% of the games.

V.G. on the other hand are OP but the whole faction should be looked at.

The poster of the stats for the tournament said it isn't really empirical data though, as lots of factors must be taken into account when looking at those winrates. They also have much higher winrates than 40% according to coh charts, so I don't believe that any one source of information (including coh charts) can be considered empirical for the same reasons.

The poster of the stats for the tournament said it isn't really empirical data though, as lots of factors must be taken into account when looking at those winrates. They also have much higher winrates than 40% according to coh charts, so I don't believe that any one source of information (including coh charts) can be considered empirical for the same reasons.

tournament stats are far more useful then the coh2 charts mate, but that doesn't mean we should solely base it on the win rates because skill plays a major factor over balance in the tournament games

tournament stats are far more useful then the coh2 charts mate, but that doesn't mean we should solely base it on the win rates because skill plays a major factor over balance in the tournament games

That's what I'm saying. I was just pointing out that for various reasons (such as skill being a bigger deciding factor than balance in tournaments) you can't just take one source of information and say "see? My point is proven." Coh2 charts is ofc flawed as well, as it displays large windows of skill levels and those skill levels are based on the awful matchmaking system in coh2, so therefore can't be considered empirical either.

Compared to other units of its timing and type Volks are OP but they carry OKW.

IMO they should be a 300 MP unit with very good DPS but very bad survivability that you have to use well.

Compared to other units of its timing and type Volks are OP but they carry OKW.

IMO they should be a 300 MP unit with very good DPS but very bad survivability that you have to use well.

Wouldn't they literally be obers then? I think volks should be shitty meat shields or like they were in coh1: ok at long range but decidedly worse at close and mid range.

I think volks should be shitty meat shields or like they were in coh1: ok at long range but decidedly worse at close and mid range.

Isn't that exactly what they are to start with? It's the STG/Vet combo that changes all that though.

Wouldn't they literally be obers then? I think volks should be shitty meat shields or like they were in coh1: ok at long range but decidedly worse at close and mid range.

Not really. There isn't really any "glass cannon" infantry besides Commandos.

IMO 30 mp per model, 30 muni stick grenade not tied to teching, MG34 upgrade in addition to MP44s. You should should have a small amount of Volks squads that are armed to the teeth and have to work with each other to survive and get vet.

Isn't that exactly what they are to start with? It's the STG/Vet combo that changes all that though.

Yeah. I feel like they trade a little more evenly at close range than volks in coh1 do though.

Not really. There isn't really any "glass cannon" infantry besides Commandos.

IMO 30 mp per model, 30 muni stick grenade not tied to teching, MG34 upgrade in addition to MP44s. You should should have a small amount of Volks squads that are armed to the teeth and have to work with each other to survive and get vet.

It's a cool idea, but I feel like there'd be no way to balance that in the lategame without scrapping the feel of the unit (as described by you) at that point. I mean, have fun trying to cap a contested vp in even 1v1 after 20 minutes.