Issues affecting infantry fights.

Apart from the DPS issues there some other issues that upset balance of infantry and imo they should be fix.

1) Sandbags. Imo mainline infantry should not be able to create green cover since it make it too difficult to dislodge. Only exception here being conscripts who if they get buff as proposed should also lose the ability. If for some reason some mainline infantry units are allowed to build cover their contraction speed should be very low.

2) Trenches. The same.

3) Reinforcement time and reinforcement cost should become unrelated. This is partially fixed in the mod but imo it should be standardized for all infantry.

4) Incendiary devices. Hard counter to garrison and cover should be removed from mainline infantry. The only way to balance garrison and cover is if all factions have to use specialized tools against them as a hard counter and not their mainline infantry. VG now are the biggest offender since they can push out of cover most opponents but if the Conscripts have their molotovs buffed as in the new mod they will probably prove equally problematic.
(in the case of the OKW ofc their will need to get some other tools to counter garrison)

If OKW have no incendiary grenade, they will have NO counter to early garrison mg cheese and we will see a repeat of OKW being hopeless vs mg spam in the early game.

If OKW have no incendiary grenade, they will have NO counter to early garrison mg cheese and we will see a repeat of OKW being hopeless vs mg spam in the early game.

True and they should have a solution.

One could giving them a normal grenade as soft counter to garrison and giving incendiary/WP/Smoke grenades to call in infantry and/or to SP. Smoke would be a great addition in the faction also.

The current issue is that just blob and attack defending infantry frontally denying them cover with the incendiary grenades.

True and they should have a solution.

One could giving them a normal grenade as soft counter to garrison and giving incendiary/WP/Smoke grenades to call in infantry and/or to SP. Smoke would be a great addition in the faction also.

The current issue is that just blob and attack defending infantry frontally denying them cover with the incendiary grenades.

Yeah I don't like that either. They just need a mobile smoke platform

One could giving them a normal grenade as soft counter to garrison and giving incendiary/WP/Smoke grenades to call in infantry and/or to SP. Smoke would be a great addition in the faction also.

The problem with that is that this is how old OKW was and Garrison Cheese still dominated them because anyone with half a brain just did the old garrison hop in and hop out and OKW would just blow all their Munis to dislodge a squad for 2 seconds. Personally I liked the idea of giving Incendiary's to SPs during the OKW redesign but SP's already are super overtasked as is. I suppose you could give Volks their old grenades back and give them a separate Incendiary upgrade so you have to at least specialize squads and all your Volks don't become obnoxious the moment one truck gets put down?

Yeah I don't like that either. They just need a mobile smoke platform

My vote is on incendiary/wp grenades on sturmpios and an isg smoke barrage. The former would make the incendiaries a lot more valuable, as they aren't on spammed main infantry, but on an expensive unit that you will only make 2 of at the most and that is close quarters, so couldn't care less about whether their targets are in cover (10m rule). It would also mean that volks gotta rely on something else to be effective too, and would open a little more counterplay as you know "those are the only guys with the incendiary." I don't understand why the latter doesn't already exist.

The problem with that is that this is how old OKW was and Garrison Cheese still dominated them because anyone with half a brain just did the old garrison hop in and hop out and OKW would just blow all their Munis to dislodge a squad for 2 seconds. Personally I liked the idea of giving Incendiary's to SPs during the OKW redesign but SP's already are super overtasked as is. I suppose you could give Volks their old grenades back and give them a separate Incendiary upgrade so you have to at least specialize squads and all your Volks don't become obnoxious the moment one truck gets put down?

SP's being overtasked IMO is mostly a good thing because they're also kind of the best at everything they do compared to their counterparts, except sweeping. I think it would be a good thing if you have to choose between spamming more volks and making a second sturm squad because I think that's how it was always supposed to work anyway. The only things I would do is combine the sweeper and schreck upgrade and make it a toggle between sweeper and schreck, with a marginal cost increase (like 10-20 muni) and make the sweeper like everyone else's (because apparently it had less detection radius), but which also means no repair speed bonus on the sweeper either.

My vote is on incendiary/wp grenades on sturmpios and an isg smoke barrage. The former would make the incendiaries a lot more valuable, as they aren't on spammed main infantry, but on an expensive unit that you will only make 2 of at the most and that is close quarters, so couldn't care less about whether their targets are in cover (10m rule). It would also mean that volks gotta rely on something else to be effective too, and would open a little more counterplay as you know "those are the only guys with the incendiary." I don't understand why the latter doesn't already exist.

I don't get why sandbags are a problem? The squad is highly vulnerable while building them and they take really long to finish. Additionally, sandbags only work when playing as a defensive faction, which means only UKF really profits from their mainline inf to build them (as Ost needs Pioneers).

Why UKF trenches have a magical anti-German barrier is something I don't get though.
Especially as other trenches can be garrissoned by allies AND enemies. It's just the usual Relic attitude of fucking with consistency I guess.

My vote is on incendiary/wp grenades on sturmpios and an isg smoke barrage. The former would make the incendiaries a lot more valuable, as they aren't on spammed main infantry, but on an expensive unit that you will only make 2 of at the most and that is close quarters, so couldn't care less about whether their targets are in cover (10m rule). It would also mean that volks gotta rely on something else to be effective too, and would open a little more counterplay as you know "those are the only guys with the incendiary." I don't understand why the latter doesn't already exist.

+1. who even uses the stun grenades at vet 3 anyway

I don't get why sandbags are a problem? The squad is highly vulnerable while building them and they take really long to finish. Additionally, sandbags only work when playing as a defensive faction, which means only UKF really profits from their mainline inf to build them (as Ost needs Pioneers).

If riflemen or VG build sandbags you need a numerical superiority to dislodge from their position. The same will happen with Conscripts if they receive all the buff from EFA revamp.

IMO The current issue with VG is threefold, the combination ST44 and incendiary grenade allows them to be very aggressive and cap sectors, while the sandbags allows them to defend the ares they have capped.

Generally speaking green cover should not be so widely available since it alters map design.

Tbh the biggest problem with infantry engagements is that the sometimes you have one squad with more than half way health and you lose a model and other times you have a squad with 1/4 of the health and still have all models... This makes things a bit frustrating when trying to play a bit more competitively because you cant predict then your oponent is going to drop a model. But at the same time I like how each model has its own health pool, its a bit more realistic. :/
I dont know if it would be better to make, in the grens case, each 1/4 of the health bar correspond to a model or make some UI improvement to show each entity health.

Why UKF trenches have a magical anti-German barrier is something I don't get though.

Axis trenches: free, must be built on allied territory, provides green cover and can be used by enemy. PD: IIRC big target size

UKF trenches: 50mp, can be built anywhere, provides garrison cover, only useable by constructing player. Target size 2 :kek:

UKF trenches are more like non upgrade bunkers than trenches. I wouldn't mind seeing Axis trenches buff, since they are locked down behind commanders TBH.

Axis bunkers are also self spotting (and then some) when upgraded.

The axis commanders with trenches also come with 210 mp ostruppen to keep the trench occupied.

UKF trenches are designed the way they are so that the brit player isn't dependent on the map to use the vickers vet 1 bonus (same with sandbags for tommies). If it was open to all the brits would not have the squads to keep them occupied and would be screwed the second the enemy got into one since they lack reliable garrison clearing tools (where's our tech free flame nade?). In essence building one would work against you nearly every time.

Axis bunkers are also self spotting (and then some) when upgraded.

The axis commanders with trenches also come with 210 mp ostruppen to keep the trench occupied.

UKF trenches are designed the way they are so that the brit player isn't dependent on the map to use the vickers vet 1 bonus (same with sandbags for tommies). If it was open to all the brits would not have the squads to keep them occupied and would be screwed the second the enemy got into one since they lack reliable garrison clearing tools (where's our tech free flame nade?). In essence building one would work against you nearly every time.

He makes a good pioint. Target size still needs to be bigger tho.

He makes a good pioint. Target size still needs to be bigger tho.

I'd like to make it so brit "bunker" costs at least 150MP. Target bigger, but not as much as Werh's.

I'd like to make it so brit "bunker" costs at least 150MP. Target bigger, but not as much as Werh's.

There's no upgrade options for the trench tho. Maybe 100?

There's no upgrade options for the trench tho. Maybe 100?

I can settle with that

Tbh the biggest problem with infantry engagements is that the sometimes you have one squad with more than half way health and you lose a model and other times you have a squad with 1/4 of the health and still have all models... This makes things a bit frustrating when trying to play a bit more competitively because you cant predict then your oponent is going to drop a model. But at the same time I like how each model has its own health pool, its a bit more realistic. :/
I dont know if it would be better to make, in the grens case, each 1/4 of the health bar correspond to a model or make some UI improvement to show each entity health.

I agree. If Johnny is alive but he's shot, his fighting capabilities should be reduced. If Johnny and Danny and Billy and Shlep are all injured but alive, chances are they're not fighting effectively. Accuracy and DPS should be factored by unit health almost as much as model counts.

Axis trenches: free, must be built on allied territory, provides green cover and can be used by enemy. PD: IIRC big target size

UKF trenches: 50mp, can be built anywhere, provides garrison cover, only useable by constructing player. Target size 2 :kek:

UKF trenches are more like non upgrade bunkers than trenches. I wouldn't mind seeing Axis trenches buff, since they are locked down behind commanders TBH.

Axis bunkers are also self spotting (and then some) when upgraded.

Okay I get your points, but just from a usability point of view:

How on earth should a "casual" CoH2 player know why both trenches with the same name have not only different stats (different kinds of cover, that ADDITIONALLY SHARE THE SAME ICON TOO) but differ from how can garisson them?

This is just ridiculously stupid in my point of view as nothing in the game explains these things. You literally have to go to a board like this and ask or check the game files

Additionally a question from my side: Are trenches worth the time? I can't remind building a single one of them in my whole time on CoH2. I know in vCoH it was like a magic moment when you were able to force brits out of a trench and occupy it on your own as they were almost invincible back then.