Katyushas

Thanks for the constructive (and sometimes not so constructive) feedback. The point is (at least in 2v2s) that Katyusha spam is the method of choice and I am talking about top100-top50 teams relying on that. I understand that Katy is effective on close range, because of risk-reward, but even on long range it is more than just formidable.

The problems I see are the following: as Soviet you always go T4 anyways (unless you spam M4Cs ofc), so you dont have to "detour" like with Ost or OKW, or to go for a certain doc like with Brits and USF. Furthermore, you can effectively use long range barrages (especially in comparison with the Pwerfer), since every rocket has the potential to wipe/do massive dmg. So often you can kill retreating units or units you didnt even know that were there with the scatter. Plus, they are super effective to easily get rid of any OKW truck from a safe distance, especially when paired with 120mm. Thats what you see every game in 2v2s. Penals, 120mm, Katyushas and T34/SU86 accordingly.

I mean you have a good point, but won't 1 diving tank solve all your problems, especially if you're OKW? You do need to remember that katyushas and pwerfers get 1 shotted, so if they spam a lot and only have a couple tanks, a panther should be able to kill multiple katyushas and still escape, especialy if it has blitz and armored skirts.

I mean you have a good point, but won't 1 diving tank solve all your problems, especially if you're OKW? You do need to remember that katyushas and pwerfers get 1 shotted, so if they spam a lot and only have a couple tanks, a panther should be able to kill multiple katyushas and still escape, especialy if it has blitz and armored skirts.

Even a Luch would do it perfectly.

Even a Luch would do it perfectly.

Lol.

I mean you have a good point, but won't 1 diving tank solve all your problems, especially if you're OKW? You do need to remember that katyushas and pwerfers get 1 shotted, so if they spam a lot and only have a couple tanks, a panther should be able to kill multiple katyushas and still escape, especialy if it has blitz and armored skirts.

Ofc they are easy to kill with a dive, but if your opponents arent scrubs then they wont let that happen. Just mine the ways to your Katyusha(s) and you are mostly fine. With what do you want to chase the Katyusha, particularly as OKW player? A Luchs is a possiblity, but it's fragile and you need Mechanized. Everything else (let's say a P4) is not worth sacrificing in a suicide mission. The same argument could be made about why Allies dont simply dive after a Stuka with a cheap T34. Sounds easy, but it isnt in practice.

Ofc they are easy to kill with a dive, but if your opponents arent scrubs then they wont let that happen. Just mine the ways to your Katyusha(s) and you are mostly fine. With what do you want to chase the Katyusha, particularly as OKW player? A Luchs is a possiblity, but it's fragile and you need Mechanized. Everything else (let's say a P4) is not worth sacrificing in a suicide mission. The same argument could be made about why Allies dont simply dive after a Stuka with a cheap T34. Sounds easy, but it isnt in practice.

You can't put mines everywhere, especially lategame (what with all the explosives flying around). Knowing this, just avoid roads and especially junctions and you should be fine. If you can back your tanks with infantry, all the better, but even if you can't, they should have less armor than you do, and their allies will probably be slow to respond, so you can just use all your tanks and dive in, kill katyushas, and be back out before anyone comes to the rescue. Also, you could just get a JT and snipe their katyushas when they try to fire from close range. That'll provide deterrence in the future too.

You can't put mines everywhere, especially lategame (what with all the explosives flying around). Knowing this, just avoid roads and especially junctions and you should be fine. If you can back your tanks with infantry, all the better, but even if you can't, they should have less armor than you do, and their allies will probably be slow to respond, so you can just use all your tanks and dive in, kill katyushas, and be back out before anyone comes to the rescue. Also, you could just get a JT and snipe their katyushas when they try to fire from close range. That'll provide deterrence in the future too.

Well, but that's the point I am trying to make, the Katyusha is also pretty effective on long range, not in spite but BECAUSE of the scatter (if you dont try to snipe down a truck or smth). So the chances to get them with your JT are pretty slim. As for the other suggestion, usually the Katyushas are with the "pack" and not on the other side of the map. So it is very likely you will lose your tank(s). Plus, the idea to dive really depends on the map, try to dive in Trois Point for example. Large open maps like Vaux or Moscow might work, but on small, narrow maps it's nearly impossible...

Ofc they are easy to kill with a dive, but if your opponents arent scrubs then they wont let that happen. Just mine the ways to your Katyusha(s) and you are mostly fine. With what do you want to chase the Katyusha, particularly as OKW player? A Luchs is a possiblity, but it's fragile and you need Mechanized. Everything else (let's say a P4) is not worth sacrificing in a suicide mission. The same argument could be made about why Allies dont simply dive after a Stuka with a cheap T34. Sounds easy, but it isnt in practice.

The difference between Katyushas and all of the other artillery vehicles, is that even infantry small arm fire can kill it in relative short time. So automatic fire, infiltrations units and nades are an option. Combined that with not awesome mobility and you have a chance.
Artillery/offmaps (mostly strafe planes) are good options as well.

OH has access to cheaper most disposable options to deal with them (222/HT) and even T3 tanks are cheaper and can be made use of.
If your issue is OKW, then remember that:
-Cloaked raketens at vet1 get no penalty on movement. Depending on map and position, you can cheese your way out.
-Med HQ gives you less options, but little reminder that vet3 ISGs have ±140 barrage range. Not ideal, but the option is there.
-Mech HQ has all of it's 3 options as viable. P2, Puma or Stuka.
-Similar to raketens, if your enemy favours using Katyushas at short range, then JPIV (at vet1) is really good to punish it.
-Any OKW infantry managing to get close will kill it (SP MP44/Schreck, Volks with STG + Faust, Obers LMG)

Commander wise: they offer lesser direct options but more utility based tools.
Spec ops: radio silence for sneaking. Flares are great cause unless he is watching the "backlines", it doesn't alert your opponent.
Luftwaffe: recon - Falls if they are near a building.
Elite armored: signal relay is basically maphack against vehicles.
Scavenge: Ostwind is the cheapest most robust option OKW has.
Fortifications: combat fire with fire. LEFH.
Feuersturm: rocket barrage. Use it only if you can sneak vision on them, don't make it obvious.


If you can't flank, due to map layout, then that means that you are on a artillery fest map and you should answer fire with fire. Basically, they won't be able to attack your artillery as well. That's a problem with maps such as Trois Point, Ettelbruck or any kind of small choke point like map. If you don't veto them, you should know how to play those maps.

Well, but that's the point I am trying to make, the Katyusha is also pretty effective on long range, not in spite but BECAUSE of the scatter (if you dont try to snipe down a truck or smth). So the chances to get them with your JT are pretty slim. As for the other suggestion, usually the Katyushas are with the "pack" and not on the other side of the map. So it is very likely you will lose your tank(s). Plus, the idea to dive really depends on the map, try to dive in Trois Point for example. Large open maps like Vaux or Moscow might work, but on small, narrow maps it's nearly impossible...

One infiltration unit can destroy a double Katyusha, it can cost a victory in the game. Especially dangerous Fallschirmjäger. On city maps, Katyusha is even more in danger.

Well, but that's the point I am trying to make, the Katyusha is also pretty effective on long range, not in spite but BECAUSE of the scatter (if you dont try to snipe down a truck or smth). So the chances to get them with your JT are pretty slim. As for the other suggestion, usually the Katyushas are with the "pack" and not on the other side of the map. So it is very likely you will lose your tank(s). Plus, the idea to dive really depends on the map, try to dive in Trois Point for example. Large open maps like Vaux or Moscow might work, but on small, narrow maps it's nearly impossible...

That goes both ways. It's impossible to dive, so make use of what you have. In other words, as okw get a kt or a JT, katyushas might scratch it a little. Or you could even follow his lead and get a stuka or two. It's only 15 fuel more, and IIRC if you are fast enough you can damage or kill katyushas with stukas.

One infiltration unit can destroy a double Katyusha, it can cost a victory in the game. Especially dangerous Fallschirmjäger. On city maps, Katyusha is even more in danger.

That too. Falls even have a faust.

Yes, but again its map dependable (need houses nearby) and its risky. A falli squad costs 440 mp, the Katy 360. And you need to pick a fairly weak doctrine just to counter 1-2 units (if you count the sniper as well).

Yes, but again its map dependable (need houses nearby) and its risky. A falli squad costs 440 mp, the Katy 360. And you need to pick a fairly weak doctrine just to counter 1-2 units (if you count the sniper as well).

falls don't cost 85 fuel tho. And if like you say for some reason you really cant dive them it might be worth it. The doctrine is decent though, you get falls and recon, and falls for muni which is kinda op.

Well, but that's the point I am trying to make, the Katyusha is also pretty effective on long range, not in spite but BECAUSE of the scatter (if you dont try to snipe down a truck or smth). So the chances to get them with your JT are pretty slim. As for the other suggestion, usually the Katyushas are with the "pack" and not on the other side of the map. So it is very likely you will lose your tank(s). Plus, the idea to dive really depends on the map, try to dive in Trois Point for example. Large open maps like Vaux or Moscow might work, but on small, narrow maps it's nearly impossible...

At some points, you should acknowledge that the issue is neither the unit or the balance but you. We are in a middle of a patch where Axis is sitting uppon Allied in all team mode and you are complaining that you have trouble to deal with one unit, which is nothing close to OP, so it requires any kind of nerf that would help you to deal with.
Let's be clear on how to solve your issue, get better and stop bitching around.

Well, but that's the point I am trying to make, the Katyusha is also pretty effective on long range, not in spite but BECAUSE of the scatter (if you dont try to snipe down a truck or smth). So the chances to get them with your JT are pretty slim. As for the other suggestion, usually the Katyushas are with the "pack" and not on the other side of the map. So it is very likely you will lose your tank(s). Plus, the idea to dive really depends on the map, try to dive in Trois Point for example. Large open maps like Vaux or Moscow might work, but on small, narrow maps it's nearly impossible...

Wait so it's too good at firing from close range and it's too good at firing from long range too? What do you want it to do? Spray confetti at grenadiers? And if you can't imagine diving a katyusha because other tanks exist, how do you expect the allies to ever counter a JT or elefant? Those don't die in 1 shot, unlike the katyusha.

Just don't blob.

Blobbing to some degree is almost required for team games because the chances you will encounter a blob is very high. So sending 1 unit here, and 1 unit there will ensure you lose every engagement.

Now there's a difference between a regular blob (2-4 squads) and a mega blob (5+ squads). Mega blobbing can be very effective with units that are decent at both AT and AI (Like Sturmpio blobs w/ shreks) but if you encounter some kind of wipe unit like a short range Katy barrage you can lose almost 2000 MP and 600 Munis in one swipe.

In the current state of the game, I'd say that blobbing outside of 1v1 is almost unavoidable. But mega blobbing is extremely risky.

2 days ago on Steppes I saw a Wehr player that had only Pgrens and Grens in one of the biggest blobs I've ever seen. It had to have been 10 squads. He actually did very well with it until the whole thing got killed while retreating by Katys and Centaurs.

Blobbing to some degree is almost required for team games because the chances you will encounter a blob is very high. So sending 1 unit here, and 1 unit there will ensure you lose every engagement.

Now there's a difference between a regular blob (2-4 squads) and a mega blob (5+ squads). Mega blobbing can be very effective with units that are decent at both AT and AI (Like Sturmpio blobs w/ shreks) but if you encounter some kind of wipe unit like a short range Katy barrage you can lose almost 2000 MP and 600 Munis in one swipe.

In the current state of the game, I'd say that blobbing outside of 1v1 is almost unavoidable. But mega blobbing is extremely risky.

2 days ago on Steppes I saw a Wehr player that had only Pgrens and Grens in one of the biggest blobs I've ever seen. It had to have been 10 squads. He actually did very well with it until the whole thing got killed while retreating by Katys and Centaurs.

Thats the point tho of katys isnt it? Punish cock slaps who try and march around and ignore game mechanics. Fuck those people. Thats why i always have the sturmtiger on my OKW cause in team games i dont think ive ever played a usf player who could move individual units...

I dont think units that punish poor tactics should be nerfed, its bad enough as is...

Ok, so for all the people feeling the need to insult and stuff: This thread is not meant to say that Katyushas need nerfs or that they are crazy op or some stuff like that, even though there seems some confusion. The point is that people say Katyushas are the mobile artillery piece that all the other ones should be centered around. I disagree with that because I think several factors make it pretty powerful, thus encouraging the artillery spam teamgame meta, which is pretty cancerous tbh. These factors include the high wipe potential on short-range (even though it's risky), the still ok-ish effectiveness and long range and most of all the easy availabilty of that thing (no teching detour, no special commander, etc.). Imo, the Pwerfer is the one arty equipment that the rest should be balanced around, since it usually does not win games on its own. It's a bit harder to get and needs some more skill to use, and does not have the same deadly effect as others of its kind.

^ maybe maybe...

but as for now, katyusha is the weakest rocket arty - yes it is cheaper / marginally cheaper (except for land mattress which is still stronger)... unless you disagree with that

so i think we should start with nerfing all other rocket arties with katyusha's power level the standard.

^ maybe maybe...

but as for now, katyusha is the weakest rocket arty - yes it is cheaper / marginally cheaper (except for land mattress which is still stronger)... unless you disagree with that

so i think we should start with nerfing all other rocket arties with katyusha's power level the standard.

I disagree, the Pwerfer is weaker, because it comes later (and you actually need to tech to T4). Also, the Stuka is sometimes obliterating everything and sometimes it literally does nothing. Stuka and Mattress seem to have a different role (area denial and siege for mattress, deleting crew weapons for Stukas), compared to the anti-everything Callis, Pwerfer and Katys. Just press left mouse button.