DSHKA + Penals

How to counter this as wermacht? DSHKA spam supressses infantry and MGs instantly. 222 countered by PTRS. My mortars are covered by MGs and the DSHKA still just walks in cone of fire and instapins MGs.


GCS right is all DSHKA + Penals + MC4. So boring to watch. This is worse than tourneys with maxim spamm

Evening SeismicSquall,

I´m sure one of the Strategists will help you soon, but in the meantime you should give use replay, so we can see what mistakes you are making. This can greatly easier our job.


I´ll give you "theorycraft" response as well, but no sooner than tomorrow, cause I´m going to bed right now.

Cheers.

Sorry.. I think i meant to put this balance section.
There is clearly a problem when every soviet player picks the same commander.

Sorry.. I think i meant to put this balance section.
There is clearly a problem when every soviet player picks the same commander.

You want us to help you how to counter this strategy ?

OR

You want to have open discussion about "How to nerf duska" in the balance section ?




It´s not problem to move your thread, just clearly tell use what you want, first

Thanks for the faith.


I did not save my last replay, but I will post the next one.

In any case it seems like there is either a counter strategy to this new meta for wermacht or there isn't and it's considered op.

The only reason every Soviet player uses it is because there are no viable alternatives. Until the faction gets help in other areas this is the way it will be. And if someone is using PTRS' the squad will be a lot worse against infantry.

The only reason every Soviet player uses it is because there are no viable alternatives. Until the faction gets help in other areas this is the way it will be. And if someone is using PTRS' the squad will be a lot worse against infantry.

Unfortunately this is the reality.

Unfortunately this is the reality.

Did I miss where conscripts got nerfed somewhere recently?
Is the maxim crap because it is no longer spammable?

Volks had their shreck taken away for a lot less, only they didn't have a more-op call-in version of Volks to fall back on.

I wish people would admit that the faction is not UP just because it has OP call-ins.

Unfortunately this is the reality.

+1

[Theoretical Counter]

Gentlefox taught me that Penals into DshK is very weak in the very early game. This is why you put as much pressure on his units as quickly as possible.

Best way of applying early pressure: Assault Grenadiers, or Osttruppen. Also, with Osttruppen you can outcap him as well. Take important garrisons, force him into unfavorable engagements. Well-microed Assault Grenadiers, or two Osttruppen squads beat a single Penal, and definitely win against CEs.

If you do not have access to these two commanders, or would rather not pick a commander so early into a game, go with a meta MG42- 3Gren build. A Sniper is useful AFTER your Grens to help them win engagements more decisively.

Get a Flamer HT as the first unit out of T2. This will force him into upgrading (at least) one squad with PTRS AT rifles, limiting them in the AI department. Constantly kite with your Flamer HT, use it to displace DshKs, force your opponent to exit garrisons, and support it with at least two infantry squads. If you wrestle enough map control from your opponent, you can go for a second Flamer HT--this will give his units even more pressure to get AT, and thus, strengthen you in the anti-infantry department.

Get a PaK gun around the time a T-70 might appear. If you successfully denied him of so much territory that he can't even tech, congratulations. You've already won, without a light vehicle he will lose map control (as long as you don't lose anything) and will be betting on his M4C call-ins to save the game.

Which is where your StuG III G come so in. Tech to T3, get two StuGs, put them on standby as a reaction force. When his M4C appears, blow it up immediately with your StuGs. It's okay if you lose one StuG to kill one M4C, as StuGs are easier to replace.

[End of Theoretical Counter]

If you need any more help, feel free to post a replay or ask me for a scrim.

Did I miss where conscripts got nerfed somewhere recently?
Is the maxim crap because it is no longer spammable?

Volks had their shreck taken away for a lot less, only they didn't have a more-op call-in version of Volks to fall back on.

I wish people would admit that the faction is not UP just because it has OP call-ins.

Maxim is crap because it was nerfed. Now it's a worse Mg34 with a increased cost. Conscripts are terrible since ..... a long time. That's why people spammed maxims instead of build them. Guards nerfed, it's not a problem, but 360MP x), they are close to fallshirm.

Now tech is weird as soviets. You have to go t1 to have good inf and you are in consequence vulnerable by not tech t2. So people try to get a fast t-70 and do not tech to build sheman M4c. Instead of developing many strat, last patch reduce them. So yeah, SU is in a weird spot. It's not impossible to win, but it's definitely harder. Especially to OKW.

You talk about the volks, but they are the best inf atm. efficient and 5 men squads. Vet 3 and volksgrenadiers are terminators. So it's a bad example by the fact they are in a VERY good spot.

Anyway, i am not a pro, i am an average player. I try to find a way out of lend lease, but that hurts my evo too much Kappa.

Did I miss where conscripts got nerfed somewhere recently?
Is the maxim crap because it is no longer spammable?

Volks had their shreck taken away for a lot less, only they didn't have a more-op call-in version of Volks to fall back on.

I wish people would admit that the faction is not UP just because it has OP call-ins.

Have you ever used conscripts? They were only viable because the maxim was OP.

Volks had their schreck taken away and now they get 60 muni stgs that improve dps at all ranges. No reason for complaint there.

A good counter to penals+ dshka is a mortar, since it pretty much gets to reign unopposed until cheeky non-clowncar vehicles show up, as there is no way the soviet will have the manpower, time, and stupidity to go both t1 and t2 and get penals and dshka and a mortar.

To counter any mg use smoke from mortar. My main faction are soviets and what rule i learned pretty well it's blind mg=useless or dead mg. In any engagement don't try to cover mg with mortar strike it's very long (even for ost mortar that have more accuracy then soviet). Use smoke, move closer your infantry (not from one side please, split it if you have more than 1 squad) and throw bundle or rifle grenade, or simply shoot mg from point blank. Even if penals will be near to mg, you can use smoke cloud to deal with them first and after that kill mg.

Great suggestions by Atomic - as long as you avoid DSHK AP Rounds and Sticky Satchels then you should be competitive. +1 on the weak early game with Penal Opening - I've found that as OKW if you see Penal Bulletins and/or Lend Lease in loadout if you just bumrush their cutoff or fuel with a SP + Kubel tag team and apply enough pressure to get out a Luches before T70 becomes a problem (same concept as rushing Flamers HT really).

Likewise if you're feeling ballsy you can try to lock down their Cut-off early with a MG42 - this is more map dependent and you'll want to lay down an early teller perhaps in anticipation of a flamer clown car (or have screening grenadiers nearby)

It's easier to deal with as OKW, due to their incredible early game prowess and a more durable anti-infantry light vehicle (Luchs).

Here's the early build order:
-Kubel
-Kubel
-Volks
-Volks
-Volks
-Mech HQ
-MG34
-Luchs
-Luchs
-Raketen
-Raketen

As Ethereal stated, rush their cutoff or fuel point with Sturms followed by Kubel. Second Kubel goes to cap your own territory, while follow-up Volks head to back-cap, then towards the enemy fuel.

Have your two Kubels work together, as a light patrol force, inflicting MP bleed and capping all over the place. Double Kubel can win a fight against an M3 Scout Car, it's fine if you lose one Kubel (or two) if you kill the Scout Car.

Then you build a Mechanized Regiment HQ, get out an MG34 to further solidify your position. Build two Luchs; these light tanks will force your opponent (if he hasn't already) to upgrade his Penals with PTRS, limiting him in the AI department. Constantly kite with them, displace DshK MGs, and inflict MP bleed with your StG Volks and Sturms in support. Spec Ops or Scavenge is decent as well because Infiltration Grenades are strong against MGs.

Around the time of your second Luchs get a Raketen, or two if you're quite far ahead. Keep your Raketen in the backline, ready to support. Your opponent will send his T-70 or M4C to deal with your Luchs light tanks, and when he does, bring up the Raketens, raketen shot+faust will spell death for it.

Alternatively you can play more conservatively, and opt for an earlier Schwerer Panzer HQ, getting two Jagdpanzer IV L/70s. Use them as you would StuGs, except that they have longer range and fire more slowly.

Maxim is crap because it was nerfed. Now it's a worse Mg34 with a increased cost. Conscripts are terrible since ..... a long time. That's why people spammed maxims instead of build them. Guards nerfed, it's not a problem, but 360MP x), they are close to fallshirm.

Now tech is weird as soviets. You have to go t1 to have good inf and you are in consequence vulnerable by not tech t2. So people try to get a fast t-70 and do not tech to build sheman M4c. Instead of developing many strat, last patch reduce them. So yeah, SU is in a weird spot. It's not impossible to win, but it's definitely harder. Especially to OKW.

You talk about the volks, but they are the best inf atm. efficient and 5 men squads. Vet 3 and volksgrenadiers are terminators. So it's a bad example by the fact they are in a VERY good spot.

Anyway, i am not a pro, i am an average player. I try to find a way out of lend lease, but that hurts my evo too much Kappa.

Soviets played fine before land lease and before penals got ptrs. Even competitively​ they were chosen many times. Even in GCS vonivan showed that he doesn't need land lease or penals to win.
Conscripts are not crap. People just don't want to invest fuel into inf units when they don't have to. But that was original Soviet design. Penals are now an easy version non fuel requiring infantry. An easy button. Of course conscripts suck in comparison.

You can't a+move maxim now that easily. It got a reasonable amount of Nerf. Once again just because dshka is clearly OP - yeah the maxim sucks in comparison. I'll give you that.

Thanks for the strat tips everyone!
But I pretty much play wermacht only ATM. I'll try them out when I get the chance and report back

Sniper + ostruppen might work. This is 100% theoretical but I bet you could totally outflank the dshka from like 4 directions with ostruppen while the sniper picks off penals or crewmen one by one. The dshka will probably spend more time refacing than shooting at ostruppen so you should be able to overrun it, even if it's supported by penals. You should also either have a shit ton of ostruppen or a lot of manpower float, so you can either base lock him or spam caches and rush an ostwind or p4.

Sniper + ostruppen might work. This is 100% theoretical but I bet you could totally outflank the dshka from like 4 directions with ostruppen while the sniper picks off penals or crewmen one by one. The dshka will probably spend more time refacing than shooting at ostruppen so you should be able to overrun it, even if it's supported by penals. You should also either have a shit ton of ostruppen or a lot of manpower float, so you can either base lock him or spam caches and rush an ostwind or p4.

Just FYI this doesn't work- osttruppen aren't significantly cheaper than grens such that you have any greater flanking power. Combined with zero moving dps and lack of grenades to punish constant refacing in combat osttruppen have always been pretty hard countered by HMG spam. G43 grens with stun nades or backed by reserve army ability would work much better.