Penals op

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 22:32 PMskyshark

honestly, i'd go the other way with aegion's suggestions... every faction should start with a combat unit. this is inhibited by EFA's design, since they have to build a structure right off the bat and the WFA armies don't. starting with engineers/pios/REs is a handicap, especially with brit IS and OKW sturms available from the get-go.

that said, the variety makes life interesting, so maybe don't change anything...

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 21:17 PMOutsider_Sidaroth

0.25?
No wonder they have such high DPS!

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 20:20 PMVuther

Ah, ok, thank you. And with that, me and Francis' conversation ends

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 00:13 AMLoopDloop

Wait so are you being sarcastic or is that actually good? What does that multiplier do?

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 23:57 PMferwiner

Out of the many proposed options, the penals got with one of the most nerfing ones from wbp. Yes, they have ability to scare of vehicles or even shoot back with an upgrade - that is fair and theoretically should open up some soviet doctrines.

At the same time they lost their flamer and got their standard AI nerfed. This generally means that they are still a fairly strong early game units but don't scale too well. They have one upgrade that decreases their general performance and are mid range - not long range unit.

They are build that often becouse generally speaking, even though they scale badly, they scale better than most other soviet units.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 02:34 AMShadowLinkX37

Starting with combat units is nice, but would you really want to start with a conscript? Kappa

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 23:50 PMAngrade (Ægion)

Having a grenadier to start instead of a pioneer is a interest suggestion. It could enable the skip to T2 to be more viable. Usually units like assault grenadiers need a Grenadier for support.

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 23:57 PMferwiner

Out of the many proposed options, the penals got with one of the most nerfing ones from wbp. Yes, they have ability to scare of vehicles or even shoot back with an upgrade - that is fair and theoretically should open up some soviet doctrines.

At the same time they lost their flamer and got their standard AI nerfed. This generally means that they are still a fairly strong early game units but don't scale too well. They have one upgrade that decreases their general performance and are mid range - not long range unit.

They are build that often becouse generally speaking, even though they scale badly, they scale better than most other soviet units.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 10:22 AMMr.Smith

First of all. Do people consider Penals OP vs both OST and OKW, or just vs OKW?

- If it's just vs OKW, then this is trivially fixable with an early faust and late-game OKW nerfs.

Secondly, just to get this clear. Do people believe Penals are OP because Penals, or are Penals OP because of DSHK & call-in Shermans?

- That's two completely different things. DSHK and call-ins are long overdue a nerf.

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.

Jump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 09:25 AMmiragefla

Penals have high dps because of their more specialized role, tier requirement, high initial cost and their lack of AI weapon upgrades which also prevents them from having crazy DPS by concentrating firepower in a single model like LMGs. The AT satchel is more of an emergency weapon unless you're attacking heavies while the PTRS is a PTRS; meant as a soft counter/deterrent. They lack the proper snares of other front-line units who are cheaper and arrive sooner, cannot build anything such as cover, or the ability to sprint/rush out of HMG arcs. The majority of the time when they are built, they have one role, kill the other side's infantry and serve as premium AI units for a faction that has only one other line infantry unit non-doctrinally that also serves a different purpose.

Yes, they are very good at their role, but they have no grenades unless it's garrison-busting which is a double edge sword as you likely can't use the garrison afterwards, give up map control via building and cost which you must use brute force to take back, and early Penals means no T2 support until later as you really need to build from that tier to make the most of it early game.

Even if Conscripts got their buffs and changes, Penals are still going to be more about damage dealing and killing stuff, though Cons might be more reliable rather than being RNG cannons with their 16 damage but crap accuracy.
If they get PTRS,their AI it's outperformed by lmg grens,so i think they are balanced for their high price,concerning bulled dodgers british IS

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 01:05 AMLoopDloop

Cough cough conscripts cough.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 12:38 PMferwiner

That is one of the units I'm talking about. If conscripts scaled, there would be no need to build penals every game.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 13:56 PMVipper

It would be even better if one did not chose to build either Conscript or Penal but if there was room for both units. An aggressive infantry in synergy with defensive one.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 13:59 PMferwiner

Exactly. The problem of penal and dshk overuse is that soviets have little to no other choice, not that the units are overpowered.