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Penals op

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5 May 2017, 23:32 PM
#41
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

Not like penals got all-around nerfed last patch or anything...
5 May 2017, 23:49 PM
#42
avatar of SturmTigerVorgo

Posts: 307

I would not say OP but it's very close, they are very strong in early game and pretty good all game long. The DPS it's too high though.
5 May 2017, 23:50 PM
#43
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2

honestly, i'd go the other way with aegion's suggestions... every faction should start with a combat unit. this is inhibited by EFA's design, since they have to build a structure right off the bat and the WFA armies don't. starting with engineers/pios/REs is a handicap, especially with brit IS and OKW sturms available from the get-go.

that said, the variety makes life interesting, so maybe don't change anything...


Having a grenadier to start instead of a pioneer is a interest suggestion. It could enable the skip to T2 to be more viable. Usually units like assault grenadiers need a Grenadier for support.
5 May 2017, 23:57 PM
#44
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Out of the many proposed options, the penals got with one of the most nerfing ones from wbp. Yes, they have ability to scare of vehicles or even shoot back with an upgrade - that is fair and theoretically should open up some soviet doctrines.

At the same time they lost their flamer and got their standard AI nerfed. This generally means that they are still a fairly strong early game units but don't scale too well. They have one upgrade that decreases their general performance and are mid range - not long range unit.

They are build that often becouse generally speaking, even though they scale badly, they scale better than most other soviet units.
6 May 2017, 00:13 AM
#45
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



0.25?
No wonder they have such high DPS!

Wait so are you being sarcastic or is that actually good? What does that multiplier do?
6 May 2017, 00:30 AM
#46
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2017, 20:20 PMVuther

Ah, ok, thank you. And with that, me and Francis' conversation ends :p


Just about. :p I was trying to remember stats on my lunch break and posting on my phone. Those pesky paratroopers slippin' my mind!
6 May 2017, 00:59 AM
#47
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1


Wait so are you being sarcastic or is that actually good? What does that multiplier do?


As far as I understand it that is basically their cooldown between shots, Paras M1 Carbines do 10 damage per shot but they fire very fast, giving them huge dps in close quarters where accuracy is not as important as rate of fire.
6 May 2017, 01:05 AM
#48
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

Out of the many proposed options, the penals got with one of the most nerfing ones from wbp. Yes, they have ability to scare of vehicles or even shoot back with an upgrade - that is fair and theoretically should open up some soviet doctrines.

At the same time they lost their flamer and got their standard AI nerfed. This generally means that they are still a fairly strong early game units but don't scale too well. They have one upgrade that decreases their general performance and are mid range - not long range unit.

They are build that often becouse generally speaking, even though they scale badly, they scale better than most other soviet units.

Cough cough conscripts cough.
6 May 2017, 02:34 AM
#49
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Starting with combat units is nice, but would you really want to start with a conscript? Kappa
6 May 2017, 04:58 AM
#50
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Starting with combat units is nice, but would you really want to start with a conscript? Kappa


Starting with Riflemen though Kreygasm
6 May 2017, 06:13 AM
#51
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Having a grenadier to start instead of a pioneer is a interest suggestion. It could enable the skip to T2 to be more viable. Usually units like assault grenadiers need a Grenadier for support.

Without the T1 building there is no faust for Ostheer so a grenadier will not be much support without it.
6 May 2017, 06:32 AM
#52
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Out of the many proposed options, the penals got with one of the most nerfing ones from wbp. Yes, they have ability to scare of vehicles or even shoot back with an upgrade - that is fair and theoretically should open up some soviet doctrines.

At the same time they lost their flamer and got their standard AI nerfed. This generally means that they are still a fairly strong early game units but don't scale too well. They have one upgrade that decreases their general performance and are mid range - not long range unit.

They are build that often becouse generally speaking, even though they scale badly, they scale better than most other soviet units.

Penal scale just fine, they get some of the highest accuracy bonuses. At vet 3 they have better bonuses than PF do vet 3.

They can fight long range units at long range (and mid and close).

They did not have their SVT or base stats nerfed in anyway.
6 May 2017, 10:22 AM
#53
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

First of all. Do people consider Penals OP vs both OST and OKW, or just vs OKW?

- If it's just vs OKW, then this is trivially fixable with an early faust and late-game OKW nerfs.

Secondly, just to get this clear. Do people believe Penals are OP because Penals, or are Penals OP because of DSHK & call-in Shermans?

- That's two completely different things. DSHK and call-ins are long overdue a nerf.

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.
6 May 2017, 10:31 AM
#54
avatar of skyshark

Posts: 239

look, i hate people that whine... but despite the nerfs to penals, penal blobs are still shockingly potent against OKW. i think this is the case for a few reasons...

1 - OKW lacks a solid suppression platform. a flak halftrack would work, except that penals just upgrade to PTRS and blob at it. MG34 is a joke... penals just run straight at it and win. every time.
2 - penals vet very quickly (still). they are pretty durable by default, but the RA bonuses make them frustrating to fight against with volks. fusiliers are ok once they're vetted, but you still end up bleeding a lot.
3 - the PTRS upgrade gives the SU player options, but also limits the OKW player's ability to counter the penal blob. also, by the time a luchs comes out, a good soviet player is already moving towards a suchka, which REALLY limits the luchs' utility.

i'm not saying they need to be nerfed into oblivion, but i think the trend towards super-low RA infantry units (penals, brit IS, etc.) is making infantry play inconsistent and encouraging blobbing.
6 May 2017, 10:38 AM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

First of all. Do people consider Penals OP vs both OST and OKW, or just vs OKW?

- If it's just vs OKW, then this is trivially fixable with an early faust and late-game OKW nerfs.

Secondly, just to get this clear. Do people believe Penals are OP because Penals, or are Penals OP because of DSHK & call-in Shermans?

- That's two completely different things. DSHK and call-ins are long overdue a nerf.

After 6 months of testing, every single top player we've talked to was reassuring us that they saw no point in ever building Penals anymore, when they could have Conscripts instead. That was before Maxim nerfs, though.

Penal are problematic against all axis and the reason is simple. They are a WFA level infantry in EFA army faction with great DPS at all ranges.

All infantry should be balanced around EFA armies level and not around WFA armies level and that includes nerfs to Penal,VGs Riflemen, Tommies, PF, possibly even SP.

Small arm fight need to be re-balanced similar to the September patch with weapons profiles and relative positioning in mind.
6 May 2017, 10:57 AM
#56
avatar of Xutryn_X7

Posts: 131



Penals have high dps because of their more specialized role, tier requirement, high initial cost and their lack of AI weapon upgrades which also prevents them from having crazy DPS by concentrating firepower in a single model like LMGs. The AT satchel is more of an emergency weapon unless you're attacking heavies while the PTRS is a PTRS; meant as a soft counter/deterrent. They lack the proper snares of other front-line units who are cheaper and arrive sooner, cannot build anything such as cover, or the ability to sprint/rush out of HMG arcs. The majority of the time when they are built, they have one role, kill the other side's infantry and serve as premium AI units for a faction that has only one other line infantry unit non-doctrinally that also serves a different purpose.

Yes, they are very good at their role, but they have no grenades unless it's garrison-busting which is a double edge sword as you likely can't use the garrison afterwards, give up map control via building and cost which you must use brute force to take back, and early Penals means no T2 support until later as you really need to build from that tier to make the most of it early game.

Even if Conscripts got their buffs and changes, Penals are still going to be more about damage dealing and killing stuff, though Cons might be more reliable rather than being RNG cannons with their 16 damage but crap accuracy.
If they get PTRS,their AI it's outperformed by lmg grens,so i think they are balanced for their high price,concerning bulled dodgers british IS

6 May 2017, 12:38 PM
#57
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885


Cough cough conscripts cough.


That is one of the units I'm talking about. If conscripts scaled, there would be no need to build penals every game.
6 May 2017, 13:56 PM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



That is one of the units I'm talking about. If conscripts scaled, there would be no need to build penals every game.

It would be even better if one did not chose to build either Conscript or Penal but if there was room for both units. An aggressive infantry in synergy with defensive one.
6 May 2017, 13:59 PM
#59
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post6 May 2017, 13:56 PMVipper

It would be even better if one did not chose to build either Conscript or Penal but if there was room for both units. An aggressive infantry in synergy with defensive one.


Exactly. The problem of penal and dshk overuse is that soviets have little to no other choice, not that the units are overpowered.
6 May 2017, 14:01 PM
#60
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Exactly. The problem of penal and dshk overuse is that soviets have little to no other choice, not that the units are overpowered.

Its a bit of both Dshk and Penal are OP. Players tend to use the easiest root to victory.

Dhsk has very low reinforcement and very high close DPS (more than X200% than other HMGs). Penals I said my opinion many times.
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