USF have pack howitzer, the M8 scott and the Major for that role. USF late-game is its own can of worms, and needs to be fixed in relation to 1v1.
Nerfing Elefant/JT means that the only non-doc scout unit of USF (M20) will no longer get oneshot. This already means that there's something that can provide vision for the delicate Jacksons.
Even though that won't solve all problems, that could be a start.
Tell that to my last opponent, he had 1 pak Howi = dead mid game, 3 scotts vet2/3 and 2 Jacksons. Hell I didn't even pick the Elefant doctrine, I could have my vet3 scout car showing half of the map and the elefant picking each of his tank one by one supported with my partner KT/Panther.
If he had pick the Calliope he could have at least unlock my HMG42 wall.
I'm first here to say Scotts are amazing, but to a certain point only.
Agree for the most part with the proposed changes although I have a few thoughts
Calliope - It's a tad too durable yes, but if you hit it with a double whammy of Armor/HP AND nerfed Rockets then it's kind of hard to justify it's pricetag in my estimation and then it doesn't have much differentiation with Priest/Infantry Company.
Fireflies - I see your point, they are beastly at Vet 3 (but the same can be said with all Tank Destroyers really) I don't think many people realize how good they are because of how efficient Cromwell spam previously was. That being said they suffer from Obers syndrome where they are sort of lackluster until they get Vet and if you nerf them too hard I don't know how useful they'll be at Vet 0 - price adjustment might help this but I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of turret rotation Vet added in place of the damage buff as well since Rotation speed is pretty bad for Firefly and holds it back.
Howitzers - I'm a big advocate for MP reduction in cost but 75 fuel seems a bit steep to really make getting Howitzers easier if they retain their current durability as long as Off-Maps can continue to completely destroy the weapon in one click then it's pretty hard to justify risking that much fuel on it. B4 could use a Pop Cap Reduction too.
Emplacement/ ISG Rework - YES PLEASE - Range is a big factor that allows Sim City/Truck City to dominate large swaths of land. For ISGs giving them smoke would be an indirect Anti-Garrison tool as it would allow Volks to close in with Flame Nades. I don't know about disabling Sapper repairs while Brace is up (if it's already under fire Sapper repair is already punished enough due to Repair penalties to damage) - disabling Stand Fast and Forward Assembly Repair might be enough as that is what really makes Emplacements Cancerous . Also, Forward Assembly SHOULD NOT repair itself.
A thought about demo's - do they need to be invis? Think they'd be more suitable being visible to all and rely on sneaky placements (behind building/sight blockers).
Flares. Solved. Or next one will be IL-2 bombing run.
2-shots -> medium tank/TD dead
Damage needs to go down from 320 to 280 to:
Brit comets' spammer laughs at you now.
Crocodile...
- Fix flamethrower damage and range (downwards)
- Upgrade cannon damage from 80 to 100 so that it can threaten tanks
I always founded how ridiculous it is compared to KV-8 in being reliable to kill vehicles (in terms of penetration though). And now you WAT?
- Remove movement-stun from Tulips
Even with stun Firefly could never finish any vehicle by itself due to long reloading. But stun gives a chance to Firefly to escape from engagement. Doing what you want just will remove flavor from Firefly comparable to remove Tulips at all. If they gonna stay just as dmg booster you need to buff reload time imho.
From one side its good idea, from another maybe bot. What about nerf speed, armor ? Waht about buff ISU ?
Finally, damage and crits are to strong, its double shoot now.
True, need nerf, and price change after it.
That ability are to storng too, 200 muni price, still can wipe tanks and criticals are to strong. So nerf wipe potential and critical.
After all this nerf, need change price and change speed maybe ? Maybe rework vet 3 ?
BEst AT unit in the game with vets and price. Will see how good balance this change will be.
Good fix.
If we talk about team games, what the reason after this use this units ? Soviet doc will be useful. I always think that in tam games players give somthing for each other.
Command panther mark target need up price, its to cheap. What about to fix flayers from doc, its to lame ability, can its work from com panther positon, coz drop flayer in every side of map are to cheese.
That is one change what we need, its wil be hard balanced mortar pit, but need try.
What about buff and change dead units like greyhound, m-42 ? What about docs fix ?
If FHQs were removed from all factions that have it, that would remove a lot of the issues team games have. They are especially advantageous to axis because they can be close to certain choke points that allies are forced to go artillery to destroy their FHQ, or force an attack on it, which is very risky considering the FHQ costs only 350(650)mp 40fu.
And something needs to be done with sneaky raketens destroying shit and gaining kevlar skin while running away.
So, I'm curious. When you play as Soviets or USF, and you encounter either the Elefant or the JT in 4v4, and somebody else in the team has fielded either a Brummbar or a King Tiger, how do you counter that?
Well, not to hijack this point, but if I'm Soviets, I've already long chosen a commander.
But the real point is that I don't counter it. My team has to counter it. I really don't think it is possible to identify balance issues alone through the lens of 3v3s and 4v4s. Team/faction synergy is a layer of balance that dominates how those game modes work.
Though some recent points you've made about the Elefant has me a little confused:
- I still believe it's Heavy-TD potency that makes Brummbar broken
You're all over the place in your reasoning, but you're reliably on about how you want the Elefant and JT nerfed. Don't fix what's not broken. Also, don't fix what you can't fix:
Due to the choice of late-game options for Soviets/USF, there is absolutely no amount of changes we can do to either faction to overcome this difficulty, unless we start adding bullshit.
Trying to overcome it through changing other factions isn't going to help either.
If stuka dive is OK but demos are bad its something wrong with u mate, pure bias i guess
JT and ele are too strong in 4vs4 mode and there's nothing to discuss here
If you're after balance in 4v4 you're out of luck dude. You don't balance a game like this from large games down, it goes from 1v1 to 2v2 and anything above 2v2 is usually a crap shoot.
And if you're in a 2v2 and hear a Stuka Dive Bomb sound effect its generally pretty obvious where its hitting and if its not on an immobile target and you still don't dodge it its 100% your fault or luck.
There's an IL2 Bombing Run or something like that that 1 shots emplacements like PAK43. I CBA'd to remember the name
Most of the time its not simply an Ele or JT vs a T34 in a vacuum, its a combination of things. With the current T34's and Marked Target I simply think any nerf of the JT or Ele is not acceptable. It's just too easy to rush them with T34's (and other allied tanks supporting) and pop Marked Target and wipe a ~300 fuel AT-Only tank off the map and maybe lose 1 T34. Then take into account the 70 Fuel T34, you can have 4 T34's for every 1 Ele or JT and with Marked Target they'll penetrate every shot.
We're in the final hours most likely of the game's cycle and attempting to make a bunch of abilities more useful in random docs is extremely risky. We need to be winding down in the radical change department.
I applaud your enthusiasm though, I wish we had this kinda flexibility 4 years ago to change things.
If it's the final hours of the games cycle what is there to lose in terms of being radical?
I think Elephant /jagd should be nerfed slightly - zombifrancis makes Mr Smiths point that if Soviet want a chance vs them they must have used a t34-85 doctrine. It's silly that one of the elephant doctrines has spotting scopes though I suppose that it's unlikely that it can be changed.
RE: Demos - is it possible to only be able to build them on a structure(including walls) or only in green cover - they could still be used to 'demolish' things and could wipe squads that moved into cover but they couldn't be used on most 'pathways' and open ground around points where they are a bit cruel.
Flares. Solved. Or next one will be IL-2 bombing run.
Brit comets' spammer laughs at you now.
1-For those who thinks Stuka Dive Bomb is fine.
I said it before, fine on 1v1, manageable on 2v2. Stupid on 3v3+. Stupidly NINJA overbuff for something which was fine since game release...
2-JT/Ele damage change. Before agreeing or disagreeing with the change, you have to realise that nothing changes for the vehicles you are mentioning. Comets/T3485 have 800HP pools. At 280dmg they still die with 3 shots (800/320 = 2.5 ; 800/280 = 2.8). The ones been affected are the 640HP pool vehicles mostly.
320HP: M5/M15AA HT/MT HT/Priest/Suxton (this would go for 1 shot kill to 2)
400/560HP: no changes. T70/Su76/Stuart/Jackson/M8/M10/AEC/Valentine
640HP: "normal" medium tanks (from 2 to 3). T34-76/Su85/ M4C/Sherman/CalliOP/ Centaur/Cromwell/FF
720/800HP: no changes. T85/KV8/KV1/E8/Bulldozer/Pershing/Comet
1040HP: no changes (4shots). IS2/KV2/ISU152/
1400HP: no changes (5shots). Churchill
That been said, i don't find the Ele as oppressive as the JT (+15range). Volks/PF also are more resilient than grens which means it's easier to cover. Before the Ele/JT damage been changed, i'll like seeing other things done first. JT been changed (-5 range at minimum so it doesn't counter the Brits AT emplacement; removed engine upgrade) and things on their commanders tweaked down.
-If your concern is mark vehicle, that could be tweaked down to be equal to Command PV mark vehicle (means it survives +1 shot)
-If your concern is T76, they are 80f. Ele is 245f. JT is 280 IIRC but has more range, armor and HP. Easier to repair due to been OKW.
3-The stupid part of the CalliOP is the alpha damage on the first barrage. The ST has over the top random crits on hit.
Leaving things "OP" because other abilities are crap is just bad mentality, cause those same bad abilities are also part of other commanders which unfortunately don't have "OP" abilities to be meta.
For ex: in case of Ele commanders, Riegel been deploy by other sources such as SC. For ST commander, the Panzer commanders needs a BIG hand. Emergency repairs should be a copycat of Soviet auto repair. Cause it's either useless (as of now) or cheese OP as repair crit from USF.
Stuka DB: rollback ninja buffs. If the intention is to "match the visuals", remove dead crit, give it proper AoE drop. Keep the pre buff deadly zone but heavily decrease dmg output after that to a middle point between now and then.
Ele/JT: as i said before JT >> Ele, as it been an issue. I still think the Ele is easier dealt with rather than the JT. I'm not in favour or against the 280dmg change with other tweaks done.
Sturmtiger: in favour of those but PLEASE buff the other 2 abilities (emergency repairs and panzer commander). Removing the OP crits should be done first without hesitation. Abandon buff (nerf to those who abuse) and mutually exclusive with KT i don't mind.
PD: i can't remember if Heat shells are still "artillery" based shells. If so, fix that as well.
Priest/Stuka Loiter: not much more to add. Stuka Loiter remains the strongest one, just for the damage output compared to the rest of the other loiters.
Croc: not particularly in favor of increasing the damage of the main gun.
FF: fine with acc nerf. Open mind to changes to Tulips. Vet3 bonus could be cut down to +40. Correct me if i'm wrong, but can't remember other 280dmg source.
JPIV: i don't see it that huge of an issue after predator camo nerf.
Stug/Repairs: yep
Howitzers: yep
Pak43: not sure, specially about those values (this is the tiniest issue since that can be changed).
ISG/Mortar pit: YES. BIG YES.
Demo: what about making them visible but not targetable without sweeper (simil behaviour with minefields and their signs).
Aura effects: not sure. Regarding the SU FHQ: remember kids, damage modifiers are always a bad thing.
Also, imo there is something very stupid about how often we see the Guard Motor commander in 2v2 regardless of map, enemies and general situation. Simply spam some penals, then go over into 1-2 120mms and later spam t34-85s. With the mark target ability you shouldnt have too much trouble getting rid of enemy heavies. This commander is just all-around good with excellent abilities throughout. Just arty is missing but can be made up for with 120mms and Katys.
A hell of a lot of good stuff in here. Only things I'm concerned about:
-As others have said, nerfing the Calliope to Priest levels is a bit much. I think 60 armor + 480 HP would be a bit more reasonable.
-The theoretical fuel prices for Howies and Pak43s seem really high. I could understand if they had brace-esque protection from one-shots, but I think its a bit much in its current theoretical state.
Other than that, this all looks absolutely amazing for the game. Just killing Calliopes, SDB and CAS loiter alone would make 2v2s a hell of a lot healthier, I'm excited to see what it'll look like when its done, Scope (TM) permitting.
A hell of a lot of good stuff in here. Only things I'm concerned about:
-As others have said, nerfing the Calliope to Priest levels is a bit much. I think 60 armor + 480 HP would be a bit more reasonable.
-The theoretical fuel prices for Howies and Pak43s seem really high. I could understand if they had brace-esque protection from one-shots, but I think its a bit much in its current theoretical state.
Other than that, this all looks absolutely amazing for the game. Just killing Calliopes, SDB and CAS loiter alone would make 2v2s a hell of a lot healthier, I'm excited to see what it'll look like when its done, Scope (TM) permitting.
Feel free to recommend a fuel price for Howies/Pak43. Would 50-ish fuel be OK, or too low?
Croc: not particularly in favor of increasing the damage of the main gun.
If the Croc becomes something you can remotely call a generalist, it doesn't have to be such a wiper; we can maybe cut flamer damage by half of what it currently is.
The idea is that the main gun should double-time it to make up for lacklustre flamer damage. Since gun accuracy, generally, sucks while chasing, the Croc is no longer crazy good.
To differentiate it from Vanilla Churchill could be given close-range penetration buffs to be a potential threat to tanks.
FF: fine with acc nerf. Open mind to changes to Tulips. Vet3 bonus could be cut down to +40. Correct me if i'm wrong, but can't remember other 280dmg source.
Any damage value that goes higher than 210 means you can now 3-shot medium tanks (including JP4). OST could use Stugs to counter FF's. OKW might be in a sticky spot.
If the FF is to be specialized vs heavies, it had better be open to counterplay from mediums.
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