Was just watching this Propagandacast and noticed a Raketenwerfer being used as a forward scouting unit because it's possible to use its sight range to scout while keeping it far enough from any enemy units to remain stealthed...
And a while back, saw one with UKF Commandos who were moving between cover over considerable distances with no cover and remained in stealth the whole time.
The cooldowns on stealth definitely needed fixing, as the mechanic was acting as some kind of combat invisibility cloak, but I don't think that'll be enough.
Is there any real reasoning for allowing stealth to work while moving?
After all, the tactical idea behind stealth is to allow ambushes, right?
So does it really make sense for a Raketenwerfer to be able to just move around under a magical invisibility cloak despite being in the open and in sight range of enemy units?
And would it really harm the usability of stealth to limit it to only working while stationary?
Fixing Stealth Cooldowns Isn't Enough
2 Mar 2017, 06:35 AM
#1
Posts: 246
2 Mar 2017, 07:20 AM
#2
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
If you remove the raketen's cloak you'd be better off just replacing the entire unit then, with a Pak 38 for example.
The unit is a balance nightmare, not to mention a buggy nightmare like the FlaK HT.
I mean it fires into the ground, and the only sensible solution is to have the projectile spawn above it, which would look weird, that's how bad it is.
The unit is a balance nightmare, not to mention a buggy nightmare like the FlaK HT.
I mean it fires into the ground, and the only sensible solution is to have the projectile spawn above it, which would look weird, that's how bad it is.
2 Mar 2017, 10:20 AM
#3
Posts: 1003
Unchanged cloak and retreat option is too much.
Fires into ground must be repaired for all guns.
And I have nothing against giving green cover for raketen crew, but cloak system must be changed
according to WBP.
Another option is only stacionary cloak (for JgPzIV also).
Fires into ground must be repaired for all guns.
And I have nothing against giving green cover for raketen crew, but cloak system must be changed
according to WBP.
Another option is only stacionary cloak (for JgPzIV also).
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
2 Mar 2017, 11:46 AM
#5
Posts: 474
I've already said it multiple times: they should just do away with this unit and replace it with the Wehrmacht Pak40, unlockable by deploying a truck.
2 Mar 2017, 14:35 PM
#6
Posts: 955
No...
...correction: DEFINITELY NO!!
Certain units like for example Commandos are supposed to use their stealth to get in close without getting picked off and also effectively counter MGs.
What you described was the very way in which they are meant to be used
And the scouting rakketen...there is nothing wrong with that either, even though it may not be exactly the thing which you would buy an AT cannon for.
...correction: DEFINITELY NO!!
Certain units like for example Commandos are supposed to use their stealth to get in close without getting picked off and also effectively counter MGs.
What you described was the very way in which they are meant to be used
And the scouting rakketen...there is nothing wrong with that either, even though it may not be exactly the thing which you would buy an AT cannon for.
"Nice. Very impressive. Now let´s see Paul Allen´s playercard."
2 Mar 2017, 16:08 PM
#7
Posts: 2066
No...
...correction: DEFINITELY NO!!
Certain units like for example Commandos are supposed to use their stealth to get in close without getting picked off and also effectively counter MGs.
Oke, but why can they stay in cloak whilst covering so much distance? It is brain dead and unfair. They have insane dps and a mini satchell nuke nade that has a second timer. This unit has too much.
The problem with cloaked Rakettens is once they reach vet 1, it is almost impossible to catch them unless you bump into them by accident. Have two of them at vet 1 cloaked running around the field and no armor is safe, unless they hit the ground
Kappa
2 Mar 2017, 16:11 PM
#8
Posts: 246
No...
...correction: DEFINITELY NO!!
Certain units like for example Commandos are supposed to use their stealth to get in close without getting picked off and also effectively counter MGs.
What you described was the very way in which they are meant to be used
Yes, meant to, but is it fair? Is it balanced? Does it make sense for a unit to be invisible in the middle of an open field? What's the intended counterplay?
And the scouting rakketen...there is nothing wrong with that either, even though it may not be exactly the thing which you would buy an AT cannon for.
Come on now, a forward scouting AT gun... nothing wrong with it? Really?
Watch the Propagandacast I linked. It's absurdism.
2 Mar 2017, 18:49 PM
#9
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
"Combat BS stealth" > Fixed on WBP.
Scouting stealth > deal with it.
Vet1 bonus could be toned down, but to completely remove it, the AT gun should be slight better but i think the current model is not as bad as it could.
Recon planes, light vehicles with extended invisible detection and some other scout abilities or upgrades (IR STG for ex).
If possible i would make all light scoutcars (222, Kubel, M3A1, M20, Dodge, Greyhound, Bren Carrier) have far extra invisible detection but not LOS effect. Not sure if i'm clear but i meant the following:
-Say invisible detection is 70.
-Unit LOS is 50.
-You won't remove FOW from a unit which is at 60range, but if you had vision from something else, the unit which is cloaked will get revealed.
Scouting stealth > deal with it.
Vet1 bonus could be toned down, but to completely remove it, the AT gun should be slight better but i think the current model is not as bad as it could.
What's the intended counterplay?
Recon planes, light vehicles with extended invisible detection and some other scout abilities or upgrades (IR STG for ex).
If possible i would make all light scoutcars (222, Kubel, M3A1, M20, Dodge, Greyhound, Bren Carrier) have far extra invisible detection but not LOS effect. Not sure if i'm clear but i meant the following:
-Say invisible detection is 70.
-Unit LOS is 50.
-You won't remove FOW from a unit which is at 60range, but if you had vision from something else, the unit which is cloaked will get revealed.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
3 Mar 2017, 03:00 AM
#10
Posts: 1954
stuff....
And would it really harm the usability of stealth to limit it to only working while stationary?
The stealth is a compensation for the raketen being the worst AT gun in the game. I'd gladly trade it for a Pak40 when playing OKW. It misses a lot, seems to take a long time to aim, and has a shorter range than most AT guns. I'm pretty sure that most recon skills make it visible but haven't tested all of them. The radio beacons from IR pathfinders or regular pathfinders show them on the mini-map. The only time I've really been annoyed with them was when playing UKF and trying sim-city, and I'll bet that they were a lot more annoyed with sim-city than I was with the raketen.
I could see giving engineers or RE's a little longer detection range if counterplay is really needed.
3 Mar 2017, 09:14 AM
#11
Posts: 149
They will tone down the vet 1 speed and it will be ok. Without stealth in moving rakketen is useless cause you nerd that veichles come close your oen rakketen to do enough damage, range is low and it miss, so you need to move it on cloak.
3 Mar 2017, 09:37 AM
#12
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
lately i had a game which i could've won.
during the game i layed 2 (!) traps with cloaked püppchen against m3.
both times the püppchen shot missed and i lost the game.
if the Unit is so OP, OP, why aren't you top20 with abusing it then?
during the game i layed 2 (!) traps with cloaked püppchen against m3.
both times the püppchen shot missed and i lost the game.
if the Unit is so OP, OP, why aren't you top20 with abusing it then?
3 Mar 2017, 09:43 AM
#13
Posts: 626 | Subs: 1
If you remove the raketen's cloak you'd be better off just replacing the entire unit then, with a Pak 38 for example.
The unit is a balance nightmare, not to mention a buggy nightmare like the FlaK HT.
I mean it fires into the ground, and the only sensible solution is to have the projectile spawn above it, which would look weird, that's how bad it is.
+1
would look wierd but if this is gonna work then i can live with that
Don't think changes in WBP are enough, imo something must be done with this units some way or another
3 Mar 2017, 11:14 AM
#14
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
I've already said it multiple times: they should just do away with this unit and replace it with the Wehrmacht Pak40, unlockable by deploying a truck.
You mean how the MG34 is right now? How about just putting it in the battlegroup HQ? Since you know, it's not mechanized, doesn't make sense for it to be mechanized.
But Idk, replacing the raketen in the HQ and putting a requirement on it might also be a solution, I just hate seeing the HQ being cluttered that's all.
5 Mar 2017, 06:36 AM
#15
Posts: 137
One of the biggest problems is how the USSR doctrine cloak makes the non-retreatable AT gun move slower than retreatable rekens with their non-doctrine cloak. No consistency. Very low risk high reward play with cloak rekens sneaking up to volley armor then retreat.
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