Sovs vs leigs.

Soviets do not have problems against double leigt. Here are reasons why:

1. enemy will have to sacrifice field presence if he went double leigt early on meaning you can seize more ground with ppsh cons or guards or penals or whatever strong you have early on.This will transit into faster t70 and into more map control/more wipes, meaning you will have the right end of the stick

As you stated double leigt later or aren´t problem because you have catty

2. most meta commander offers 120mm mortar - soviet leigt counterpart. This comes with guards, that are unbeatable for okw early on, if combined with maxims/penals

3. Certain commaders have ppsh cons (one even at partisans or t34/85 with them). ppsh cons can just yolo (oorah) against lover numbered volks, wining engangemnt because of sheer short range DPS and because leigt shouldn´t fire at own squads.

4. Partisans - cleverly used partisans along with maxims/penals as support will make hammer, while main force will be anvil - trapping weakened OKW army around their battlegruppe and forcing them to retreat -possibly get leigts (not possible on all maps needs good building placement)

5. direct assault - direct assault consisitng of AT gun as counter to HQ, guards/cons to hold volks at bay and maxims to supress him main force should work, leigts cannot help him, when there are no soldiers they can help at.

6-sucka spam - free barrages = no leigt problem


Conclusion - if OKW went double leigt early on, do not fight 1v1 fight, but grab all your forces and attack his most valuable spot - you must conquer it because you have much bigger fighting force. By this you will force him from HQ or cut off and maybe even result to gg, because you will cap most points while enemy try to gain his ground again, or hold it.

There is a nerf in the WBP that eliminates +33 range in auto-barrage, but I do not know if this includes the leIG

For times like these I like to have an Anti-Turtle Commander in my load-outs - Incendiary Barrages are useful for wiping (or at the very least forcing ISGs to move about for a bit) and come in some Meta-ish commanders - mostly Shock Rifle.

You can also consider commanders with Howies (if you feel confident enough to last until the CP/Manpower you need for them) - It seems like Soviet Combined Arms commander is kind of a trendy pick now - gives you both the Howie and the Bombing Run, which is good against the T4 building in combination with another attack to take off remaining HP. I'm pretty sure the Propaganda Arty can force ISGs to retreat (lol, Relic) which works if they don't have a Forward Retreat Point.

I can write same tools how counter t-70, stuarts, comets and another pudding, its dont mean that its dont are broken. Small map have some problem with arty, mortar pit, 120, isg, why not pac hawi ? coz pac have auto fire range are small.
Its hard to fix, imo better make its more close to pac hawi.

It has the same range as the 120mm and mortar pits and a single leig is not able to deal with russian maxim spam, especially when they are garrisoned and need very little micro on maps like Faymonville to be effective. 2 of them eat up 18 Pop cap, so there is some risk involved with that build as well. If there is some other way for OKW to deal with entrenched stuff I'm all ear (no flamers, no mortars).

Would you have a related replay available to support your claim?

I cant download replays on coh2org cus i always get viruses on my browser after visiting this site. But i had a game against pzgrangriefen where he abuse this, maybe i download something for you later.

There is a nerf in the WBP that eliminates +33 range in auto-barrage, but I do not know if this includes the leIG

I think not. They nerfed only mortars.

Soviets do not have problems against double leigt. Here are reasons why:

1. enemy will have to sacrifice field presence if he went double leigt early on meaning you can seize more ground with ppsh cons or guards or penals or whatever strong you have early on.This will transit into faster t70 and into more map control/more wipes, meaning you will have the right end of the stick

As you stated double leigt later or aren´t problem because you have catty

2. most meta commander offers 120mm mortar - soviet leigt counterpart. This comes with guards, that are unbeatable for okw early on, if combined with maxims/penals

3. Certain commaders have ppsh cons (one even at partisans or t34/85 with them). ppsh cons can just yolo (oorah) against lover numbered volks, wining engangemnt because of sheer short range DPS and because leigt shouldn´t fire at own squads.

4. Partisans - cleverly used partisans along with maxims/penals as support will make hammer, while main force will be anvil - trapping weakened OKW army around their battlegruppe and forcing them to retreat -possibly get leigts (not possible on all maps needs good building placement)

5. direct assault - direct assault consisitng of AT gun as counter to HQ, guards/cons to hold volks at bay and maxims to supress him main force should work, leigts cannot help him, when there are no soldiers they can help at.

6-sucka spam - free barrages = no leigt problem


Conclusion - if OKW went double leigt early on, do not fight 1v1 fight, but grab all your forces and attack his most valuable spot - you must conquer it because you have much bigger fighting force. By this you will force him from HQ or cut off and maybe even result to gg, because you will cap most points while enemy try to gain his ground again, or hold it.

1 - He can build two leigs not at the same time. He can save some mp and make second leig later. You cant take territory so easy because when you cap point leig will bleed your squads. Therefore his man will beat my squads or i have to retreat.
2 - Only one commander with guard motor is good (guards/t3485). So i have to play with them because without mortar its gg.
3- These situations are not always work and depends on many factors. So its not the main counter.
4 - Not all maps have houses and clever player will not stand his leig near the house if there partysans.
5 - He can roll his leigs from hq to the back and shell your at gun which is very dangerous for it.
6 - Again, he just move his leig from the barrage. Allso invisable pupchens and other shit will save his leigs.

1 - He can build two leigs not at the same time. He can save some mp and make second leig later. You cant take territory so easy because when you cap point leig will bleed your squads. Therefore his man will beat my squads or i have to retreat.
2 - Only one commander with guard motor is good (guards/t3485). So i have to play with them because without mortar its gg.
3- These situations are not always work and depends on many factors. So its not the main counter.
4 - Not all maps have houses and clever player will not stand his leig near the house if there partysans.
5 - He can roll his leigs from hq to the back and shell your at gun which is very dangerous for it.
6 - Again, he just move his leig from the barrage. Allso invisable pupchens and other shit will save his leigs.

1 - 1 isn´t that big problem, just get mortar yourself, you can cap on circle end so cannot target you so easily - you wont give him los when you dont cap near flag. Also you can reposition once you get hit by first shot

2 - 90% of soviet players are playing with without complain, why cannot you use him as well against certain situations- its called counterpciking, you cannot play what you want, you must play to counter enemy build if you want to win.

3 - enlight me about those factors, its not main counter, but defnitely good counter if you can pull it off

4 - I stated that not all maps have good houses, but often okw players place hq behind house to cover it from AT gun fire, meaning leigts will be nearby as welll

5 - you can reposition at gun while you seize hq. Then place demo on top of it and detonate demo with AT gun shot - demos do more damage when detonated

6 - if he went 2 puppetens and 2 leigts, you can easily push puppetens and leigts from HQ using your infantry and then barrage HQ with suckas. Or use sucka strike from behind of your maxims, puppetens have short range and maxims will pin them down

Well, this is an easy one:
1) Remove autofire from all indirect.
2) Rework barrage so it would fire like 6 shells at fire rate 1 shell per second.

The Result:
1) You have to actually control the unit.
2) You have to plan where and when to use it.
3) Indirect fire team weapons will actually counter static weapons (forcing them to move or killing several crew members). Probably one leig/mortar would be enough to consistently deal with couple of MGs (if there are more MGs you should probably invest more into indirect).

Its in a weird spot. Its accuracy and range mean it can be parked and left to do its own thing and still perform quite well against squads in the open, but its low AoE means its pretty poor at dislodging Mgs and contributes to Maxim spam being such a problem. It also lacks smoke, which is odd on the "offensive" Axis faction.

IMO:
-Nerf auto-attack range to 80 (should be standard for light arty in general)
-Add a smoke barrage
-Replace vet 1 with an HE barrage ability. It would basically be a longer-ranged version of the Soviet mortar's barrage.

Imo why not try remove autofire from all inderect units ? Its will be skill and RNG accuracy.

The ISG was hit pretty hard by the nerf stick in the past and nerfing it any further would take away the only thing OKW has to fight Bofors/mortar pits especially with the cancer commander around. Not to mention the ISG still suffers the shooting at buildings bug.

I haven't been on the receiving end of this but I would say that 660+ man power is a huge investment and if they are wasting time shooting your base they aren't shooting back at your 120mm mortars or what ever it is that you have.

I know it's no satisfying answer but I would suggest playing OKW against a competent Soviet and trying it out for yourself to see what happens. I know that if I play OKW and try to invest heavily in field guns I get wrecked by light tanks and can't maintain a field presence.

The ISG was hit pretty hard by the nerf stick in the past and nerfing it any further would take away the only thing OKW has to fight Bofors/mortar pits especially with the cancer commander around. Not to mention the ISG still suffers the shooting at buildings bug.

I haven't been on the receiving end of this but I would say that 660+ man power is a huge investment and if they are wasting time shooting your base they aren't shooting back at your 120mm mortars or what ever it is that you have.

I know it's no satisfying answer but I would suggest playing OKW against a competent Soviet and trying it out for yourself to see what happens. I know that if I play OKW and try to invest heavily in field guns I get wrecked by light tanks and can't maintain a field presence.

We all know that pits will be removed or nerfed to shit, german boys will get it, same for calliop and other stuff. Of course they will shoot your guard mortar therefor you have a war of arty. Shelling your base is possibale on small map which in 1v1 are many. You wont get wrecked by light tank cus you got cheap pupchen, faust, mines and as i said before you can get double leig not at the same time. Get second leig when you have plenty of mp. Try to play against top okw players on semoski winter or famonvile approach. You will what is a real company of leigs.

The ISG was hit pretty hard by the nerf stick in the past and nerfing it any further would take away the only thing OKW has to fight Bofors/mortar pits especially with the cancer commander around. Not to mention the ISG still suffers the shooting at buildings bug.

I haven't been on the receiving end of this but I would say that 660+ man power is a huge investment and if they are wasting time shooting your base they aren't shooting back at your 120mm mortars or what ever it is that you have.

I know it's no satisfying answer but I would suggest playing OKW against a competent Soviet and trying it out for yourself to see what happens. I know that if I play OKW and try to invest heavily in field guns I get wrecked by light tanks and can't maintain a field presence.

So Tanks don't work against bofors/mortar pit?
Walking stuka doesn't work?
shreks and raketen against the mortar pit don't work?
Light artillery piece doesn't work?
Sturmtiger?

One of the best things I was told long ago in a balance argument is to use what you call OP. Play British and see if anyone breaks your bofors/mortar combo without an isg. I bet it will happen.

One of these threads or both of them are just baseless complaints. There is a thread that OKW can't beat soviet because maxim spam. Now there is a thread that 2x leig beats maxim spam. Where are we going with this?

So Tanks don't work against bofors/mortar pit?
Walking stuka doesn't work?
shreks and raketen against the mortar pit don't work?
Light artillery piece doesn't work?
Sturmtiger?

Obviously all those things will work, but not until later in the game meaning you might be at an unrecoverable disadvantage with the raketen being the only exception, but they are very unreliable against it. Going mech HQ and investing in stukas is risky since (at least until winter patch) you can't heal wounded squads and you have to invest all the fuel that you have because the bofors/mortar pit would be defending it.

It's very map and game mode dependant.

One of the best things I was told long ago in a balance argument is to use what you call OP. Play British and see if anyone breaks your bofors/mortar combo without an isg. I bet it will happen.

At no point did I say it was O.P. But if you want to fight it early enough to make a real difference, you need the ISG.

It would be a case of nerfing the ISG to help one scenario would have unintentional consequences for other scenarios.

One of these threads or both of them are just baseless complaints. There is a thread that OKW can't beat soviet because maxim spam. Now there is a thread that 2x leig beats maxim spam. Where are we going with this?

You are over simplifying. The problem is not that you can't beat maxim spam. It's that on particular maps the tactic can be abused, meaning with the right conditions maxim spam can be devastating to OKW due to their lack of options to fight it early enough to make a difference. But the winter balance patch should change that by making the flak half track more viable against garrisoned buildings.

My point is; if this is a real issue (the double ISG against Soviets) then the fix for it can't be as simple as nerfing the ISG, it would have to take into account that there isn't really any other good option for OKW early game when facing MGs or emplacements.

Removing autofire from indirect fire units would make them obsolete unless a substantial cost reduction is applied. I'm not going to pay 330mp for a unit that needs constant babysitting to do anything useful.

Sometimes these discussions resemble bad jokes

Q: What is more efficient than LeiG?
A: Two LeiGs!!! DDDDDDD

Maxim spam is hard to counter, best way is to capture key buildings first, and use VolksWagens to hunt the MGs while they're redeploying. Easier said than done, but until mid game, this sadly is the best option. After the maxims dig in, they're hard to kick out.

I don't think the leig is much better than any other mortar in the game. It's got a little more range, but it seems like the AOE is smaller. I think people need to invest more in tactics than complaints, there are options. If someone wants to put up a replay to back their claims up it would go a lot further in this kind of debate.

Hector is right, double ISG is not a problem for Soviets. You should have a T70 if he does this first, or get a Kat if he does this late game.

This only functions against maxim spam, and only marginally since merge can help offset it and buildings render the ISG nearly impotent.

If you are regularly struggling against double ISG as soviet, or you think it too good, you need to be apply more pressure. If he goes double ISG you should be able to build 3 script squads and walk up to them since he will not have an MG or a rakenten. In smaller game modes you can also get mortars and just straight up shoot back at them since the range differences are not impressive when you can get in close and reinforce for soviets is so cheap.

If you really bog down get a 152 Howie and just blow him away. There is no way he is going to be able to mount an effective attack all the way to your base if you get a Howie early and just start to bleed his MP away. Also since OKW lack good off maps (you are looking at just two options in most cases Scavenge and Fortifications) you should be able to all but ignore his one shot wipe potentials of your gun.

people keep saying remove auto fire for Leig, then remove autofire for Mortar pit and see how that goes.