Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.4 Update

Where is ur flame nade and stuka and isg?

Locked behind expensive tech? Plus, volks toss a nade, the penials get out, kill them, then get back in. Much effective.

stuka

Because OKW should have to spend ~165 fuel to deal with a building

isg?

Isnt very good or cost effective. Plus going t1 means you'll be run over by any light vehicles.

As long as the soviet player picks T1 ,you dont have to face garrisoned mg.

Because building T1 locks them out of building t2?

However, usf have to face garrisoned (the most op mg in game) MG42 and MG34

I thought you were talking about OKW, why are you bringing in another faction into the mix? Also i hope you were not implying that the MG34 is OP, because its trash.

with only two non-doctrinal option which is mortar (being nerf into the ground while being more expensive than the ost one) and pack howitzer.

Derp?

• Mortar
  
• Pack Howie
  
• Rifle smoke
  
• Rifle nades
  
• M20 smoke
  
• M8 scot
  
• Fighting position
  

Thats 7 options by my count.

Sorry maybe penal were 27 short time ago. I didnt track all changes.
And yes i think only right way to count reinforecment is reinforcment of whole squad so 6 x 25 = 150.
Similarly i didn quite understand why shocks are 192 to reinf and PG are 140 while they roufly similar value on the BF.

Locked behind expensive tech? Plus, volks toss a nade, the penials get out, kill them, then get back in. Much effective.



Because OKW should have to spend ~165 fuel to deal with a building



Isnt very good or cost effective. Plus going t1 means you'll be run over by any light vehicles.




Because building T1 locks them out of building t2?



I thought you were talking about OKW, why are you bringing in another faction into the mix? Also i hope you were not implying that the MG34 is OP, because its trash.



Derp?

• Mortar
  
• Pack Howie
  
• Rifle smoke
  
• Rifle nades
  
• M20 smoke
  
• M8 scot
  
• Fighting position
  

Thats 7 options by my count.

USF options:
1. Mortar
2. Packhowitzer
3. Rifle smoke isn't an option, can you just uae smoke to kill garrisoned unit?
4. MKII grenade is not effective as flame nade, you need three or above to clear out a garrisoned troop. And it is even less effective because "Plus, volks (rifle) toss a nade, the penials(garrisoned unit) get out (with an additional 1.5 sec timer), kill them, then get back in. Much effective."
5. M20 smoke , again , smoke deal no damage, l2p.
6. M8 scott less effective and arrive later than stuka and "
Because OKW(USF) should have to spend ~165 (~250)fuel to deal with a building"?
7 fighting position,a lot of limitation. It is just as absurd as claiming a bunker as an anti-garrison option.

So finally usf get two option only but okw has three which are even cheaper and more effective than USF a lot.

You see!you have too much bias. The QOL of OKW is already the best already. It doesnt need more special care for noob.

i like how okw was supposed to be elite faction,now its just whermact 2.o....usf also a faction of using mobility and flanks to just a click move lol...also the both gg and mr.smith are so allied biased its not even funny...you never seen them defending or caring about axis before they were recruited by relic you can see in their past posts

i like how okw was supposed to be elite faction,now its just whermact 2.o....usf also a faction of using mobility and flanks to just a click move lol...also the both gg and mr.smith are so allied biased its not even funny...you never seen them defending or caring about axis before they were recruited by relic you can see in their past posts

I think they should care more about axis also, their off map abilities and mobile artillery are still too op and brainless.

Guys, stop derailing the thread will ya?

Soviets were a faction that was suppose to have weak stock options, but strong doctrinal choices (which is why they have so much good stuff in 1 doctrine) and i fully understand why it never worked out and so they received necessary buffs to ther stock options which i guess, includes the new PTRS changes.

Shouldn't therefore, the doctrines receive a rework?

We are making big changes to penals, first we put them right, then we put them left. Then we do something completely else. Yet penals still remain gimick unit because of TECHING PLACE.

Main problem of penals and generaly whole tier1 is building time. Many of you don´t get this, but 40 seconds is far too much. Its literaly like if you started game and then pressed 40 second timer and then started game. Your enginners lost 40 seconds of capping and you can start building penals after 40 seconds. This forces you into getting 1 conscript or furthure losing map control. If you get 1 conscript you won´t have mp for enaugh penals before teching/getting medics and so you will lose map control later.


After 40 seconds enemy have already solid income - capped 2 strategic points and fuel point. So he is literaly ~ 40 seconds forward of you. This means fight will happen in your part of map because he already capped his most important point while you are just starting with capping phase.

He also have 1 more squad on field and when first fights happen - on your site, it is likely that you lose unless he make mistake because he have 1 more squad on the fiel and also had tim to rush better position. It isn´t only 40 seconds of first poineers squad. You will be lacking 40 seconds of every squad, because each penal will be built 40 seconds later than conscrip squad (t1 building time).

This whole will result into lack of map control early on, and giving enemy edge in rushing light vehicle to furthure cripple you. If you get PTRS, you lose squad. If you go zis at gun, you lose squad. Also because you spend so much MP so early on (earlier than ussually because enemy have more map, resulting into faster light tank) you will lack medics and this will furthure set you back, once enemy squads start getting upgrades.

Against ostheer you´re in a bit better position, because at least his pioneer is early on building tier1 and not capping, but still he is training HMG, while you are idling time building tier1 before building squads.

Yes, you can go conscripts, but 1 conscript is completely useless in your penal army and also will result into getting less penals. So you won´t have actually 3-4 strong penal squad at price of 40 seconds of enginner time and 160mp, but you will have 2-3 strong penal squads and one conscript. As you can see, going 3 cons and then once you have capped most important points, retreating with enginner, getting tier2 is much more efficient.

Right now only thing that could have give tier1 some room to breathe early on was m3 but you nerfed even that unit even more by giving volks so early and so cheap faust. Right now there is nothing that can halt them in aquiring luchs and ending game.


Conclusion: Try giving tier1 20 seconds building time so getting early tier1 isn´t so punishive. We will also be able to realise true penals cost because right now they have to be "OP" in order to regain ground you lost in first 40 seconds, in like 5 minutes, before enemy gets even faster light tank than ussually.

What do you think ?

Where is ur flame nade and stuka and isg? They are all non doctrinal. As long as the soviet player picks T1 ,you dont have to face garrisoned mg. However, usf have to face garrisoned (the most op mg in game) MG42 and MG34 with only two non-doctrinal option which is mortar (being nerf into the ground while being more expensive than the ost one) and pack howitzer.

Flame nade = repeated munitions cost. A squad can leave a garrison and move to another or to cover. OKW squads CANNOT do this vs flamers.

ISG = very slow to hurt garrisoned units. Penal flamethrower = very fast.

Stuka = 100 fuel and comes much later than penal flamethrowers.


The Soviets have a great advantage from the very early game, which translates into a fuel advantage for them and a fuel lack for the OKW (slowing down your Stuka solution)



Lastly: (even though you completely changed topic)
"usf have to face garrisoned (the most op mg in game) MG42"
Vickers is arguably the best MG in the game. Gets more range when vetted and does more damage.

USF also have smoke grenades on their mainline infantry for a small fuel cost.

Guys, don't feed allied troll.

We are making big changes to penals, first we put them right, then we put them left. Then we do something completely else. Yet penals still remain gimick unit because of TECHING PLACE.

Main problem of penals and generaly whole tier1 is building time. Many of you don´t get this, but 40 seconds is far too much. Its literaly like if you started game and then pressed 40 second timer and then started game. Your enginners lost 40 seconds of capping and you can start building penals after 40 seconds. This forces you into getting 1 conscript or furthure losing map control. If you get 1 conscript you won´t have mp for enaugh penals before teching/getting medics and so you will lose map control later.


After 40 seconds enemy have already solid income - capped 2 strategic points and fuel point. So he is literaly ~ 40 seconds forward of you. This means fight will happen in your part of map because he already capped his most important point while you are just starting with capping phase.

He also have 1 more squad on field and when first fights happen - on your site, it is likely that you lose unless he make mistake because he have 1 more squad on the fiel and also had tim to rush better position. It isn´t only 40 seconds of first poineers squad. You will be lacking 40 seconds of every squad, because each penal will be built 40 seconds later than conscrip squad (t1 building time).

This whole will result into lack of map control early on, and giving enemy edge in rushing light vehicle to furthure cripple you. If you get PTRS, you lose squad. If you go zis at gun, you lose squad. Also because you spend so much MP so early on (earlier than ussually because enemy have more map, resulting into faster light tank) you will lack medics and this will furthure set you back, once enemy squads start getting upgrades.

Against ostheer you´re in a bit better position, because at least his pioneer is early on building tier1 and not capping, but still he is training HMG, while you are idling time building tier1 before building squads.

Yes, you can go conscripts, but 1 conscript is completely useless in your penal army and also will result into getting less penals. So you won´t have actually 3-4 strong penal squad at price of 40 seconds of enginner time and 160mp, but you will have 2-3 strong penal squads and one conscript. As you can see, going 3 cons and then once you have capped most important points, retreating with enginner, getting tier2 is much more efficient.

Right now only thing that could have give tier1 some room to breathe early on was m3 but you nerfed even that unit even more by giving volks so early and so cheap faust. Right now there is nothing that can halt them in aquiring luchs and ending game.


Conclusion: Try giving tier1 20 seconds building time so getting early tier1 isn´t so punishive. We will also be able to realise true penals cost because right now they have to be "OP" in order to regain ground you lost in first 40 seconds, in like 5 minutes, before enemy gets even faster light tank than ussually.

What do you think ?

you are very correct with the timing of soviet T1. the strenght of con spam is the immediate capping power you gain by building 4 cheap T0 units. T1 and T2 both take time to build and field a unit. what you write is also true about T2 but with penals its a bit more complicated because they cost 300 mp instead of 260 (maxim).
considering the sniper also takes very long to field it is a valid way to reduce the build time of the T1 structure by half in order to also make sniper play a better choice. this would lead to faster early game capping with T1 openings.
T2 openings should not gain this advantage because maxims are very hard to push off in the early game (if positioned correct). we have seen that maxim spam results in poor early game territory but once the russian player expands his grip on the map he often keeps good control until tanks arrive. shortening the build time for T2 would lead to more maxim spam which nobody wants.

stuff

This is, actually, one of the best ideas I've read in a while.

And while you're out of cover, the other 5 models in the squad (and any other nearby squad) are wrecking you.

And that's precisely the reason why we gave 2-3 members of that squad short-range weapons that aren't effective much longer than cover-ignoring range.

DUH!

And the Penals can happily sit in cover because the OKW have no flamethrower. OKW can't clear garrisons well and with penal-flamers everywhere, they can't even USE garrisons.

Flamer Penals cannot sit in cover while you harass them from long-range with Volks. They don't have the effective range to do that with their ppsh. They either have to move back, or move forward.

I'm not saying that Flamer Penals in current WBP are not OP (maybe they are). What I am saying is:
- WBP flamer Penals are way more manageable/weaker than live-version Penals
- There ARE ways to make the flamethrower work for penals in a non-OP manner, if we haven't hit the right spot already

We are making big changes to penals, first we put them right, then we put them left. Then we do something completely else. Yet penals still remain gimick unit because of TECHING PLACE.

Main problem of penals and generaly whole tier1 is building time. Many of you don´t get this, but 40 seconds is far too much.

I get what you are saying 100% and wrote about the issue to some extent in a previous post.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/58098/comunnity-poll-for-t1-penals-design/post/581803

The main issue is not so much timing, but rather the initial cost of t1 and the cost of penals. All other factions build from t0 ( including sov ) except ost who is balanced around effective t0 mg and cheap grens. Building t1 and going 3 - 4 penals is a nightmare to balance because it kind of sits outside the teching timetable all other factions adhere to. The problem is then further exacerbated by soviets tech structure, the differences between ost and okw and the LVs they field, guards, partisans, soviet unit durability and last of all the ever useful merge ability. Edit, don't forget the maps.

Penals/t1 in current form will always be OP or UP largely due to the huge number of variables involved and the fact that penals have to be effective to take back the ground that is initially lost.

It would be far easier to try and standardise the cost of t1 and penals for a more consistent opening and then balance accordingly with strengths and weaknesses that take into consideration the fact that sovs have access to sniper/clown car as well as the fact that guards/partisans can be added to the mix doctrinally.

Flame nade = repeated munitions cost. A squad can leave a garrison and move to another or to cover. OKW squads CANNOT do this vs flamers.

ISG = very slow to hurt garrisoned units. Penal flamethrower = very fast.

Stuka = 100 fuel and comes much later than penal flamethrowers.


The Soviets have a great advantage from the very early game, which translates into a fuel advantage for them and a fuel lack for the OKW (slowing down your Stuka solution)



Lastly: (even though you completely changed topic)
"usf have to face garrisoned (the most op mg in game) MG42"
Vickers is arguably the best MG in the game. Gets more range when vetted and does more damage.

USF also have smoke grenades on their mainline infantry for a small fuel cost.

Again, smoke won't kill garrisoned unit.

For USF, it is even more difficult to deal with garrisoned unit as most of its methods to deal with garrisoned are more expensive and less effective when comparing to OKW.

USF: MKII grenade= extra side tech cost(Flame nade come with tech) and can't even force the garrisoned unit to get out if the building is large enough(Flame nade can!). Even multiple grenades are thrown, it has a 1.5 second timer for opponent to react (Flame nade doesn't!). And quote from you "A squad can leave a garrison and move to another or to cover." when facing MKII grenade too.

Conclusion: OKW's Flame nade win!

Pack howitzer = Even more slow to hurt garrisoned units while being more expensive than ISG with less range.

Conclusion: ISG win!

M8 Scott = 65 fuel(Directly rush to M8 scott is around 250fuel while stuka is only 160 fuel) and comes much later than stuka. While stuka can one-shot most of the building without the need to pray for RNGJESUS on your side while usf doesn't have any non-doctrinal mobile artillery option, balance?

Conclusion: Stuka win!(Comes earlier and more reliable than any mobile artillery of ally)

Summary: OKW has a much easier life when deal with garrisoned units and they have enough options already.
If any changes should be made, USF should be given more anti-garrisoned ability.

you are very correct with the timing of soviet T1. the strenght of con spam is the immediate capping power you gain by building 4 cheap T0 units. T1 and T2 both take time to build and field a unit. what you write is also true about T2 but with penals its a bit more complicated because they cost 300 mp instead of 260 (maxim).
considering the sniper also takes very long to field it is a valid way to reduce the build time of the T1 structure by half in order to also make sniper play a better choice. this would lead to faster early game capping with T1 openings.
T2 openings should not gain this advantage because maxims are very hard to push off in the early game (if positioned correct). we have seen that maxim spam results in poor early game territory but once the russian player expands his grip on the map he often keeps good control until tanks arrive. shortening the build time for T2 would lead to more maxim spam which nobody wants.

Am orry, but hwere con are cheap ? 240 = 240 grens and 250 folks, so where here cheap ? Reinforce cost 20, 3 model cons = 2 grens, 5 model = 100 mp, 3 model of grens =90 mp. So who are cheap here ?

Conclusion: Try giving tier1 20 seconds building time so getting early tier1 isn´t so punishive. We will also be able to realise true penals cost because right now they have to be "OP" in order to regain ground you lost in first 40 seconds, in like 5 minutes, before enemy gets even faster light tank than ussually.

What do you think ?

Meant to add to previous post, but sov t1 build time is 20 - 22 secs.

This is, actually, one of the best ideas I've read in a while.

Maybe because it was backed up with countless games playing with or against penals with many good players at WPBP. We all mostly agree with this idea.

I get what you are saying 100% and wrote about the issue to some extent in a previous post.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/58098/comunnity-poll-for-t1-penals-design/post/581803

The main issue is not so much timing, but rather the initial cost of t1 and the cost of penals. All other factions build from t0 ( including sov ) except ost who is balanced around effective t0 mg and cheap grens. Building t1 and going 3 - 4 penals is a nightmare to balance because it kind of sits outside the teching timetable all other factions adhere to. The problem is then further exacerbated by soviets tech structure, the differences between ost and okw and the LVs they field, guards, partisans, soviet unit durability and last of all the ever useful merge ability. Edit, don't forget the maps.

Penals/t1 in current form will always be OP or UP largely due to the huge number of variables involved and the fact that penals have to be effective to take back the ground that is initially lost.

It would be far easier to try and standardise the cost of t1 and penals for a more consistent opening and then balance accordingly with strengths and weaknesses that take into consideration the fact that sovs have access to sniper/clown car as well as the fact that guards/partisans can be added to the mix doctrinally.

Cost itself isn´t problem. You should be punished somehow by getting far better units that the other player. Its your choice to get cheap cons or better penals at cost of 160mp teching. You also get good M3 (whitch now suck because of okw early faust) and sniper. Problem is how much time you lose going this strat.

Everything you said is true. There is no point in playing the advantages of OKW fanboys, they will insist that they have no advantage whatsoever. The best thing to do is to participate in the voting polls for game changes that the balancing team creates to help improve the balance. Discussing with these trolls fans of the axis is waste of time.

...
What do you think ?

This is, actually, one of the best ideas I've read in a while.
...

Hector and erverybody who agreed with his post, SOV T1 already take 22 seconds (probably dead 20 seconds if the unit does not stutter at the beginning of construction) to build. I believe 40 second was the original time but the it got sliced into half when sov teching got cheaper etc etc.

Cost itself isn´t problem. You should be punished somehow by getting far better units that the other player. Its your choice to get cheap cons or better penals at cost of 160mp teching. You also get good M3 (whitch now suck because of okw early faust) and sniper. Problem is how much time you lose going this strat.

Another thing I forgot to include is penals also take longer to build than cons, about 7 secs. I can only assume grens also build at the same rate as cons since they cost the same.

Furthermore, if you reread my initial post, my suggestion was to standardise the cost of penals ( ie bring in line with other factions eg USF ) so that capping was more equal and then balance all t1 units accordingly.

Penals can still be good Ai and occupy their own niche if they have not AT, its just a matter of finding the sweet spot.

So I tested it in cheatmode, and yes tier1 build time is 20 seconds, not 40 as I thought.


Still it get finished around 30-40 seconds in real game depending on input lag and also enginners have to move there, position and start building it (10 seconds).

Maybe giving it 10 second build time, because it really feels bad right now, whole previous post apply to 20 second build time, but I thought it is much more