OstGrenadeers - glasscannon with no damage.

I had a look at the stats.

DPS with a single BAR/LMG42/Bren:

Squad	DPS(Close)	DPS(Far)	Vet 3 DPS(Close)	Vet 3 DPS(Far)
BAR Riflemen	41.01	13.09	57.1	18.28
LMG42 Grenadiers	23.61	17.06	33.25	25.64
Bren IS (in cover)	18.63	17.22	26.26	22.43

Effective Squad Health:

Squad	Vet 0	Vet 3
Grenadiers	352	457
Riflemen	412	669
Infantry Sections (in cover)	444	585
Infantry Sections (out of cover)	400	526

The stats certainly agree with you on the BAR. It effectively adds an additional Rifleman to the squad at long range which heavily impacts Grenadiers while its close-range damage makes it difficult to use Panzergrenadiers.

Oddly enough, Infantry Sections don't massively outperform DPS-wise. Their durability will allow them

to win any long-range firefights but a competent player can simply rush them with CQC infantry.

I certainly agree with you that Grenadiers (and their LMG42) aren't really the problem.

Do those stats include reload?

lol i did not know IS have less health out of cover. which idiot decided this is a good idea

lol i did not know IS have less health out of cover. which idiot decided this is a good idea

He mean EFH not HP. he is taking into account RA...

The thing with OST is very simple. OST will never be balanced until they get:
1) a decent 5men infantry squad as a mainline unit. We all know that is very hard to cap points with grens cause all of the explotion damages, tanks, mortar and specially arty.
2) a decent light tank (not a scout car assuming the role of a tank). This light tank role can be assumed by the Puma (as a stock unit) or a Panzer III (early versions).

Recived accuracy have nothing to do with aoe shells, only affects small arms fire.

I never mentioned received accuracy, I just said 'durability' which besides RA involves the number of models in squad as well as their individual armour value. Whatever would be better for balance.

He mean EFH not HP. he is taking into account RA...

forum warrior viper please no flame

forum warrior viper please no flame

???
I am not flaming you or anyone else...I am explaining that, as the chart says, that is effective hit point, not normal hit points. The hit points remain the same with or without cover...

Grens aren't really supposed to counter Rifles with a Bar, they only need to stay competent against them. PG's are supposed to be used to counter Barred rifles. And here is why:

Grens come with a huge number of tools, snares (no tech), nades (no tech), free MG upgrades (current tech requirement only delays appearance). [Before you jump on me about free MG's understand what I am saying is only that you don't have to pay to unlock the opportunity to buy them.] They also come in a faction that is designed around holding territory so in this role they excel, dealing good long range DPS helps to protect MGs from flanking units.

PG's on the other hand are meant to be powerful AI and should appear some time after the vet appears on the rifles. This is the problem, they struggle to gain vet fast enough to keep up with rifles and at some point become such a MP sink that you fall behind. It also doesn't help that simply by picking American you forced Wehr to build a pak early to protect against the deadly stuart, which if the American player forgoes you end up a PG squad down to him as he beats you with rifles.

Now the American player should have to choose to get AI or AT on his rifles, mixing is inefficient. When he does this at least one squad is easily beaten by Grens at all ranges. If instead he upgrades his RE's with zooks he should now not have the munitions until later to get Bar's and your grens should hold the advantage this whole time.

Currently in game what actually happens is that the American player gets a couple of rifles and picks up a mortar. He then goes on to bleed the Ost player for having an MG, which is required. The Ost player rushes around trying to deal with American rifles by upgrading his Grens, but now the American player can seemlessly transition to the Stuart and pick off more models. If the Ost player drops PG's the stuart can now close the gap and punish the MG, since he won't have enough munitions for everything. If the American player does not see PG's he can easily afford to get another mortar and bleed the Ost player trying to bunker down or get a pak howie and do the same. At this point the powerful rifle blobs start to come into their own and late arriving PG's simply won't keep up.

The last issue here is the problem of the USF mortar regularly wiping Gren squads. This issue is so painful because without Grens to support MGs the map falls into USF control and fast tech to the Stuart forces an even more lopsided game as the Ost player scrambles to get the pak.

My analysis at the end of the day is this: USF currently holds too powerful a tool. Other factions don't seem as unfairly blessed, although Penals are also a bit of a problem. Brit's are stupid because if they survive to the late game Ost is basically helpless against the tank spam which it cannot hope to match, while Brit infantry continue to increase in effectiveness as more and more upgrades are given to them. Ost grens are not so much at a disadvantage as powercreep and a couple of glaring issues with USF make them feel weak.

You know I wonder if all these bonkers calculations of 'effective' health take into account the effects of cover, especially the army_item called i think cover training that most units have that applies a .9 modifier on received accuracy while in cover.

Part of me wonders what the effects would be if this value could be changed to damage instead of received accuracy.

Also have people never walked conscripts through an lmg gren squad and watch the lmg42 rendered useless due to the model trying to rotate? Same could be said about the ptrs.

Also have people never walked conscripts through an lmg gren squad and watch the lmg42 rendered useless due to the model trying to rotate? Same could be said about the ptrs.

Yes, but that is a skill based avoidance of DPS, what's the point here?

Forcing squads to position to fire is fine, it requires intense micro from the player trying to pull it off and it is still really hard.

Yes, but that is a skill based avoidance of DPS, what's the point here?

Forcing squads to position to fire is fine, it requires intense micro from the player trying to pull it off and it is still really hard.

Like avoiding the timers on sniper cloaking? That's being considered a bug to be fixed.

And while what I described is probably the least effective method possible, the plethora of sight and shot blocking mechanisms in this game that are constantly present on the battlefield is worthy to note.

I think it is as much of a challenge move CQC units to point blank than it is to keep any kind of infantry at something other than point blank range.

I think the problem lies with other units and they should be adjusted to the level of grenadiers, as they are also causing trouble to the other axis faction.

In terms of explosives that are over performing it would have to be the Calliope and Pershing. A few of the other worst offenders have already been dealt to in the patch.