Kyle wants feedback on the PIV

I vote for long range penetration. It will make the p4 scale much better in the late game. but i think it should get the buff at the first veterancy.
This way the buff can be a litle bigger and it will go well with the general design of the faction.
Nerfing all the other medium tanks might have other unexpected consequences.
About the so much talked Comet, i don't think it is OP. I would include it along with the t 34 85, stug, easy 8 and maybe others in a class of very effective tanks for their cost. Don't know if all of these should be nerfed. Keep in mind that the Comet has shit veterancy gains. Only some accuracy at veterancy 2. The phosphorus attack should be nerfed BUT it should be made to work every time. now if you stand in front of an at gun and try to use it, you risk to lose the tank, the ability is OP but it doesn't work every time.

The main issue with Pz-IV is not actually the Pz-IV but its counters:

The unit holds little shock value since most of its counter are on the field before it appears while its late game value diminishes with the appearance of heavy TD even if vetted. Generally is bad investment of resources.


1) Light TDs (same goes for Stug)
By the time PZ-IV comes out 2 Su-76 can easily be waiting for and the performance of the SU-76 is simply too good.
The SU-76 simply has too much penetration and accuracy at range 60, 100% penetration at range 60 is simply too much it should be down to 70%-80%, 55% chance to hit at range 60 (without counting collision). is also to high it should be down to around 50%.(either by less accuracy or by lower target size)

2) Heavy TDs
The accuracy of these vehicles is simply too high at range 60
Same goes for the accuracy of Su-85 especially since it has 88% chance to hit and 100% to penetrate.
Same goes for the accuracy of M-36 especially since it has 77% chance to hit and 100% to penetrate.
Same goes for the accuracy of Firefly especially since it has 110% chance to hit and 100% to penetrate.

The damage of the M-36 and firefly is also too high it should go down to 160 and have the extra damage via target tables against super heavy vehicles (Tiger, King Tiger, Elephant, JT, ST)

In addition the alpha strike of the firefly is ridicules allowing it to kill a PZ-IV in 8 sec with no reaction time. The damage of tulips again could go down vs mediums and normal via Super heavy, and the Stun could be removed vs mediums or the penetration could go down and the stun only available on deflection.

3) Hand held AT weapons
The deflection damage of these weapon make medium tanks unable to deal with blobs. Deflection damage should be removed vs mediums and only happen vs heavy tanks/Super heavy vehicles.

4)Stuart
This vehicle can shut down the PZ-IV and kill with any help from other AT weapon. The "Stun shot" and "point blank engine shot" should become vet abilities and/or scale with veterancy. They should start weaker and scale with veterancy even becoming better than they currently are but at vet 3

Other than that PZ-IV could see some price reduction or its competition (T-34, Cromwell, Sherman) have their stats lowered a bit and/or have their abilities/utility weakened since they have both good stat and ability/utility (tank commander for Cromwell, smoke can be vet ability, AP/HE the AP round can become slightly less effective vs soft targets) .

The problem is a combination from buffs of the allies and nerfs for the axis.

- U buffed the allied Tank hunters
- allies get more AT with brits (Firefly, very good 5 Pounders, OP piats, etc)


- u nerf the volks (no schrecks)
- u nerfed the raktens (maybe camo and sneaky....but are weak if the hit the gound, aim too long, die like flys)
- u neerf the armor fromt heavys
- u made the Panther weak for its price ...compare to allies tanks

Nerf Germans, overall.
Buff PIV

I voted for the penetration buff. Otherwise the tank is fine imo

I think we should balance other tanks around p4 because he is most balanced compared to infantry heavies lights and AT guns

lower the fuel cost

I think that the problems with the P4 have to do with the fact that:
- OSTheer has 5 different battletanks, whereas most factions have 2-to-4, at best
- The Stug scales a bit too well for the late-game
- Even though the P4 has some stats that are better than other mediums, those are not statistically significant (180 armour vs 160 armour is laughable). At least until Vet2, which is a long time
- The only way you attain vet is through combat. However after combat you need repairs, and you have sad OST field repairs.

In short, OST P4 lacks identity compared to its peers/enemies, and Ostheer synergy doesn't help it.

(Assuming Stug, T34/85, Cromwell and Comet are addressed separately)
Would it be a crime for the P4 to come out at the OKW price, for the OKW stats, and the OKW Combat Blitz?
- That would immediately differentiate the P4 from both other units in the tier (too squishy), and other mediums (OKW P4 comes out with the skirts on. That makes a big difference)
- Even though Fuel difference is big, the manpower difference is tiny (350 MP vs 360 MP). That will probably give you some spare cash for an extra Pioneer squad
- OKW Combat Blitz (+100% accuracy, turbo-speed) will spare the P4 of any issues it has with flanking
- OST will have a choice between saving up for a beefy's P4's shock value, or going at it with glasscannon specialists
- More armour will mean less damage taken, which means less time off the field
- Even if we make a terrible mistake and overbuff P4, its fuel price is at least expensive, thus the mistake will probably not snowball

- The Stug scales a bit too well for the late-game

Any nerf to the StuG will render it useless again.

The Panzer IV is at a good place and only needs minor adjustments. It should be the choice if you want a jack of all trades that can hold off a tank and kill infantry but doesn´t excell at it. When the game starts revolving around bigger tanks like T-34/85s, Easy Eights, Comets etc. that´s where the Panther comes to play.

But the Panther is currently shit. So unless the Panther does get a huge buff, I don´t see why the StuG should be nerfed. Also having the StuG at 50 range doesn´t help it being an effective unit. The only saving grace is the high rate of fire. Also it´s a glass cannon. Lategame it gets pretty much owned by one single AT gun/ (well microed) TD.

I agree with butcher, great all round but as soon as the allies start bringing out their better armor it suffers and your stuck with the panther which at the moment is pretty... meh.

So... Relic doesn't know what's wrong with P4?

I love how shot barrell Sherman has better pen than long barrell P4

I would say, buff penetration or nerf a bit Sherman and Cromwell.

Problem are not with oshteer p4, problem are with cromwell. OKW p4 need more low price, but remove vet 2 armor (lets its be in upgreid for ammo or fuel). I whant rember that p4 have huge vet buffs, another medium tanks dont have it. Vs all another mediums tank he are fine. Dont need in histeria try to make to strong unit, coz ostheer still have pacs, shreks, stugs. When ppl undestand that dont need make nerf and buff another units, its will be good.

Problem are not with oshteer p4, problem are with cromwell. OKW p4 need more low price, but remove vet 2 armor (lets its be in upgreid for ammo or fuel). I whant rember that p4 have huge vet buffs, another medium tanks dont have it. Vs all another mediums tank he are fine. Dont need in histeria try to make to strong unit, coz ostheer still have pacs, shreks, stugs. When ppl undestand that dont need make nerf and buff another units, its will be good.

yep, i wrote it as well allready:

"Chromwell vs PiV --> Chromwell win. And don't forget Chromwell still can crush very well inf.


I would not change the PIV, because then USA shermans, soviet t34 are failing. Just nerf the Chromwell+ Comet."

buff accuracy to actually make it hit something, and also buff its pen

I voted for nerfing its equivalents.

The Panzer IV truly does feel underwhelming right now. I feel it's better to just go stugs/ostwinds depending on the situation.

The tiger needs more frontal armor


Medium tanks penetrate very easy

It's UP in my hands and OP if using against me. If you couldn't make vice versa then let's assume it's just fine.

It's not about the PIV on it's own, rather than the tank on it's context. IMO it's not about simple buffing the PIV or nerfing the other tanks, but several small tweaks. Say, instead of buffing by 10% the PIV or nerfing other mediums by 10%, i think a 5% buff and 5% nerf to achieve the same overall difference.
PD: this will just apply to OH PIV.

PIV:
-Reduce fuel cost by 5
-Increase pen by 5/10 on n/f

Note/Idea: this is just to further emphasize it's scaling capabilities. What about increasing accuracy on MG/Gunner with vet? Veterancy n cover makes this aspect less relevant on the late game, which furthers makes HE and crushing more reliable as AI.

T3485:
I don't think the MG buff was intended, just an oversight. If it possible it should had it's own profile. If not, then...
-Increase cost to 135f/140f from 130f (it's old cost when it was a single call in)

Sherman:
-I'm kinda reluctant on reducing pen by 5/10

UKF:
I think the issue is mostly the early vs late game potential and the teching cost. Comet is a different can of worms and should be address separately (slight tweaks on PV). With that been said...
Cromwell:
-Not sure why they have 0.75 acc on the move. Reduce it to 0.6/0.65 (OKW level)
-Increase fuel cost by 5
-I'm kinda reluctant on reducing pen by 5/10

Give it stug vet 3 rate of fire

Sherman:
-I'm kinda reluctant on reducing pen by 5/10

If you nerf the pen of the Sherman you will never see it again lol.