New Community Map Feedback Thread

A more general comment:

I would love to see something like "Designer's notes" on the maps - maybe similar to the map guides - where the map creator explains how the different elements of the map are supposed to play out. What's the idea behind this lane, what function does this house have, etc.

The advantage is that e.g. when the player knows that a certain house is supposed to work as a strongpoint for the Northern team, there are two levels on which feedback can be provided:

- Is is a good thing that the house is a strong point?

AND

- Does the house actually fullfill its intended role?

And of course this also could serve as a general map guide which likely helps in the adoption of the map when it is added into the map pool.

I dont think that the players wont read it. Only a small number of players is looking at the workshop. A small number is interested in map design and map meta (see the common games: everyone is trying only meta. There is a small number trying to adjust playstyle for the map).

E.g. on Westwall OB West trucks can be build in an "offensive" way because the dragon teeth line is a natural shield against at guns with attack ground command. But it seems to me that no one has noticed this tactical possibility When i would add it into a map comment i dont think it would change the situation because no one will read it ^^

A more general comment:

I would love to see something like "Designer's notes" on the maps - maybe similar to the map guides - where the map creator explains how the different elements of the map are supposed to play out. What's the idea behind this lane, what function does this house have, etc.

The advantage is that e.g. when the player knows that a certain house is supposed to work as a strongpoint for the Northern team, there are two levels on which feedback can be provided:

- Is is a good thing that the house is a strong point?

AND

- Does the house actually fullfill its intended role?

And of course this also could serve as a general map guide which likely helps in the adoption of the map when it is added into the map pool.

So you mean the entire streaming and brainstorming process?

So you mean the entire streaming and brainstorming process?

Not how it came about but more like what there is now, like, what you wrote in your earlier post, e.g.

Also there is another additional medium crush "pass" into the middle plaza area from the west and east building rows, this is to keep indirect fire to being effective, but offering another way for it to be attacked outside of just along the road, this will also give savvy players another opportunity to flank later on with their tanks into the back lines of the opponent.

Or what Rommel wrote:

E.g. on Westwall OB West trucks can be build in an "offensive" way because the dragon teeth line is a natural shield against at guns with attack ground command. But it seems to me that no one has noticed this tactical possibility

I dont think that the players wont read it. Only a small number of players is looking at the workshop.

True, I guess most people actually don't realize there IS a workshop.

I guess it would be a bit much to ask to create something like this from the perspective of the mapmaker, but I would totally dig it

Ok, crazy idea, but there is a place that even the most casual players will notice and which so far isn't used (at least for some of the maps): The text in the loading screen (assuming you can actually modify that).

Yeah, for the stock maps this is mostly fluff, but what about writing something about the general concept of the map in there. Something like (ok, mostly random attempt loosly related to Westwall):


After capturing the beaches on D-day the allied forces advance further inland where German defenders try to halt them from fortified positions. Dragon teeth inhibt movement of the allied vehicles and provide cover against long range ATG shots. Key in securing supply are the few remaining houses but beware of deep flanks through the woods.

Yes, my writing sucks, but I guess you get the point; the first sentence was still fluff text, but it reflects the theme of the map; should be omitted when running out of space for potentially more pertinent information. Or to pick up your paragraph, something along the lines of:

The area is littered with debris and at times require heavy vehicles to create breaches at XXX and YYY.

Really nifty would be if the loading screens would contain operational maps that reveal flanking routes or important positions... Ok, I guess I'm taking this too far.

Edit:

A small number is interested in map design and map meta (see the common games: everyone is trying only meta.

Well, I guess you can't fault players for that. The vast majority of players are probably pretty casual and might not even have noticed that there are new maps until they land on one. And if you find yourself in an unexpected situation, the typical fallback is to play what you know works in most cases, that is: THE META.

If you think that the specific map requires a change in meta, the loading screen I think is the ideal place give some hints there. Likewise, I think tric mentioned in one stream that a lot of players mistook one of the maps as close quartery due to its looks and settings, but that long range units actually performed better there. Again, this could be totally hinted there.

Ok, I shut up now

...

You have really good points, I guess I tried to capture this with higher level live casts on the maps. If we had some people with video editing skills (I sure as hell don't), I could get together content to explain the maps (at least mine) and try to get any others available. This would be a pretty large undertaking overall though, as each video would be anywhere from 1-3 minutes in length.

I would be glad to help with this in anyway possible and come up with a format. Once my IRL stuff the next few days dies down. I have A LOT of things I need to get going on here.

There was a good video, I saw earlier from one of the maps that didnt win. I think it was stanvicks "nevel" map.

Edit: I was right, here is the vid I'm referencing, we could try to do something similar to this.

No need to, you make strong points Siphon X.

One thing to keep in mind is that most people that play automatch play only automatch. Therefore if it isn't in rotation, people most likely won't notice it.

It's a major barrier to mapmaking. Custom matches are hard to draw people when you have an unfinished map.

No need to, you make strong points Siphon X.

One thing to keep in mind is that most people that play automatch play only automatch. Therefore if it isn't in rotation, people most likely won't notice it.

It's a major barrier to mapmaking. Custom matches are hard to draw people when you have an unfinished map.

To expand on this, that is also why they don't receive testing until near finished, since most won't help before hand..

....

the text for maps we create, when relic puts our map into rotation, is not carried along. I wrote a blurb about Hamlet but in automatch, its something like "community map created by Pigsoup" which is eh i guess.

the text for maps we create, when relic puts our map into rotation, is not carried along. I wrote a blurb about Hamlet but in automatch, its something like "community map created by Pigsoup" which is eh i guess.

Relic hadnt ported the names of the maps into other languages. In german (and i guess it is the same with the french, italian, russian, ectpp version) all maps have a "$NoKey"-command. So they were too lazy (or stupide?) to put the map names into all localisation files... Relic...

Relic hadnt ported the names of the maps into other languages. In german (and i guess it is the same with the french, italian, russian, ectpp version) all maps have a "$NoKey"-command. So they were too lazy (or stupide?) to put the map names into all localisation files... Relic...

As a french user, i confirm it is written $$NOKEY$$ followed by some randomn number for map name and description but maps still work perfectly.

Ill let Kyle know, this ASAP, hopefully this can get fixed in the upcoming patch.

First of all thanks to the mapmakers for the new maps, probably my personal favorite batch of community spotlight maps.

1 thing I've noticed on Westwall is that the building covering the northern VP has 4 windows covering the side of the fuel point, 2 of them are on the ground floor behind a wooden fence which ends up blocking the sight of HMG's if it's being deployed in 1 of the 2 windows on the ground floor.
Assuming the map is supposed to be more or less mirrored it might be better to only have 2 windows on the top floor (like the house on the southern VP) so that the HMG can always fire when facing the fuel point.

First of all thanks to the mapmakers for the new maps, probably my personal favorite batch of community spotlight maps.

1 thing I've noticed on Westwall is that the building covering the northern VP has 4 windows covering the side of the fuel point, 2 of them are on the ground floor behind a wooden fence which ends up blocking the sight of HMG's if it's being deployed in 1 of the 2 windows on the ground floor.
Assuming the map is supposed to be more or less mirrored it might be better to only have 2 windows on the top floor (like the house on the southern VP) so that the HMG can always fire when facing the fuel point.

Although this was not my map, I believe this was addressed and will be fixed in an upcoming patch.

Ninja Edit:

Actually all maps were updated outside Braynsk (spelling) forest

Jupp. Already noted and fixed with the new version. Now none of the VP houses can protect the fuel points. U have to crush the fence first.

Jupp. Already noted and fixed with the new version. Now none of the VP houses can protect the fuel points. U have to crush the fence first.

Nice, that's a better fix indeed especially considering the extended range for UKF HMG at vet 1.

It sounds like you guys already updated and reworked your maps, any idea if we have to wait for the winter patch for these updates or will they come as a separate update somewhere in between?

I think we have to wait for Relic.
But u can always test the new maps when u look into the workshop!

I think we have to wait for Relic.
But u can always test the new maps when u look into the workshop!

I just did this out of curiosity and noticed that both fuel points are still covered by the northern/southern VP houses and unlike the map in the live version now they actually completely cover the fuel points, no need to crush fences first unlike what you suggested in your previous post, is Westwall v2 the right one?

Hm. The northern VP is fine. But the southern VP isnt blocked by the fences. Thanks for the information. That need to be reworked.

EDIT:
Map is updated at the workshop. Both VPs should be no longer able to defend the fuel with a heavy MG inside the VP buildings.

Of the six maps mentioned, I only really played Westwall and Caen enough to have any real thoughts on them. I have played Bryansk Forest once and it was an absolute mess. Full of shotblockers and occasional lanes of absolutely nothing coupled with the fact that the trees are so tall they actually obscure your view. Very frustrating to play and caters a lot of short range play.

Westwall is not a bad map at all, the dragons teeth are a little odd and block shots well, and whilst I have trouble with this it is the elevation that hurts most, as many an AT gun shell has embedded itself in the mound rather than the barricade, which is not fun. The map is quite large and promotes some fairly flexible gameplay, which is a plus, but I have three main niggles.

The first: The mid is too open and apart from the low mounds, has few to no shot blockers. Ostheer love this part of the map because it's hell for USF or Soviets to cross and Paks can wall for days. I'd suggest a couple of shot-blockers lined up along the dragon teeth wall to help US infantry close more unscathed. yes, smoke exists, but with such a lot of ground to cover it makes it very hard to attack and the distance laborious to flank.

Second: The houses by the cut-offs and VPs need to go, be destroyed or be replaced with wooden ones if the tileset allows it. It's not good design having stone house by critical locations that are too easily defendable, and to be honest, having stone houses in the first place is not very player friendly either.

Third: The layout of the territory points is too "safe" and all that matters are the fuels, VPs and munitions, and whilst not unreasonable, it means that a player cans till have a steady income despite losing their fuel for a few minutes. I would push a couple of the points to the peripherals a little to ensure they play out in a way that rewards more mobile play as they are too hard to reach and too easy to recap.

All in all, good map, and whilst I would rather veto other maps as USF, it's not particularly favourable to the faction even with a good start.

Caen is a funny one. It has lots of buildings yet few garrisons as well as wide streets. This is a good way to do urban maps as it prevents building spam and MG madness as well as demos blowing holes in anything that moves. I like the map, it's fairly dynamic by being large and isn't frustrating in most cases.

What I would address is the odd little raised gantries and walkways that seem to serve no purpose other than infuriate tanks. A number of larger bombed out structures have ledges that allow squads to sit up there and shoot, and given how bad elevation is in this game tanks end up having their shots hit the walls. This is most notable just south of mid VP, behind the yellow garrison, there is a large corner of a structure with stairs going up. I played a game yesterday vs a friend and whilst I had the upper hand in tech, my Ostwinds suffered a great deal in taking out his AT gun at the top of steps simply due to elevation absorbing shots. it can happen with MGs too which cannot be properly hit with grenades due to impacting on the walls too early or simply not reaching he target. Not all are bad, but the high ones need to go.

And as a mapper on DoW II I do share your sentiments about map meta. No one gives a shit about how you designed the map and with what strategies in mind, they just do the same builds as ever and in the end you have to accept it.

[EDIT]: I know it's not mentioned, but any word on the map Crossroads? I am aware it was added a few months back as part of the rotation but it's absolutely brilliant, I really don't want Relic to remove it after rotation. It may slightly favour a couple of strategies and units but no map is perfect, please tell Relic I want to snuggle that map forever (and WhiteFlash too, if he's up for it )

Westwall
Hm. I wont rework the dragon teeth line with the tank obstacles and the high adjustments. It is working as intended. But the new version has two more passages for tanks.

About the houses: Well. I cant exchange them with wooden houses because the rural belgian setting has no wooden house that would fit here. I know they have a lot of HP. I have already reduce their effectiveness with the wooden fences. MGs wont be able to defend the fuel (u can stealth cap them) and with the fences u can get close to the house to use grenades.

With the new version i have added new cutoff gameplay. U can now cutoff any fuel or munition point from the map center or flanks. It should be more easy now to force a cutoff gameplay.


Red dotted line: Munition cutoff
Green dotted line: Fuel cutoff