Market ruins

Alright, fair experience. I simply don't understand, why invest so much time designing for and creating mediums for a game you don't enjoy?

The play style is definitely different, as you intended. It just forces different strats against certain factions. I understand that you cant please all 5 factions with all their respective units and commanders, but I feel simply putting more usable buildings in between those lanes would be amazing(allows for moving between lanes and flanking). I don't like plain maps either, however I do find the hybrid maps most enjoyable, such as Langreskaya and crossing in the woods, incorporating buildings with areas of open map, short combat areas, and perhaps some buildings that overlook integral points. I'd be happy to chat more if you're serious.

Absolutely I'm serious. The only way people (including myself) are going to grow as content creators are getting new trains of thought. Even if I disagree doesn't mean I wont try to implement it. And at least you will get to see my train of thought in a more direct manner as well.

Also I enjoy the game, but it's beyond frustrating to see how to fix the game and having no way to get everyone to agree on a choice, and instead having the game be a inbred shit storm that it is.

Why derail

It's perfectly fine to create maps for a game you don't play. I make them for DoW II and haven't played that in a long while.

Do you still have a problem with this?

The play style is definitely different, as you intended. It just forces different strats against certain factions. I understand that you cant please all 5 factions with all their respective units and commanders, but I feel simply putting more usable buildings in between those lanes would be amazing(allows for moving between lanes and flanking). I don't like plain maps either, however I do find the hybrid maps most enjoyable, such as Langreskaya and crossing in the woods, incorporating buildings with areas of open map, short combat areas, and perhaps some buildings that overlook integral points. I'd be happy to chat more if you're serious.

Good maps take into account multiple playstyles and the designs of every faction.

There is very little wiggle room in map design with how CoH2 territory and resources are set up. As it currently stands map design will typically cripple one or two factions that play on it by how cramped options are for mapmakers.

Considering I have beaten people on stream far and above your skill level, says I do indeed, play the game. What core units are useless? Tell me what one doesn't have some sort of way to utilize the map in a way that is advantageous. I would really like to hear the base infantry on this map that doesn't have a way to do something or win an engagement, that isn't a balance issue with the game and actually a map issue.

Hey Trick, I have much respect for what you do. So please don't get me wrong and don't feel offended.
I was referring to all the new maps if you read my post again. This one is not that bad on the shot blockers but still, it has enough . It's very hard to use AT guns and also light vehicles. Wehrmacht grenadiers are also not that good on this one. Soviet SU85 also very hard to use.
And because it is a small and narrow map, all the action happens only in the middle so flanking is also a bit restrained. That's my humble opinion.
I had one game on your second map and there it is also hard to use AT guns. If you are a little behind on map control and fuel and you have to use them, it gets very tough.

As I said, I was referring to all new maps and there is one: Rüstungswerke.First, you can't even see your units because of this huge buildings and second, how can you use AT guns and light vehicles there? It is a mystery to me and my medium/bad skill/ranking level

But don't let my opinion affect you man, keep making maps and who knows, maybe the next on gets to be my favorite.

P.S. I love counter attack tactics, its a very cool commander

P.S.II. This about my skill level was a cheap shot!

Market Ruins are acceptable but Refinery and Essen... Please, take them away... Stalingrad 2.0

Market Ruins are acceptable but Refinery and Essen... Please, take them away... Stalingrad 2.0

Caen made me physically react...

Considering I have beaten people on stream far and above your skill level, says I do indeed, play the game. What core units are useless? Tell me what one doesn't have some sort of way to utilize the map in a way that is advantageous. I would really like to hear the base infantry on this map that doesn't have a way to do something or win an engagement, that isn't a balance issue with the game and actually a map issue.

Hold up, you tryna 1 vs 1?

Market Ruins are acceptable but Refinery and Essen... Please, take them away... Stalingrad 2.0

Essen is a great map that indirect fire blows on. It is what it is.

And Refinery had some issues upon release due to my visiting my grandparents and not making adjustments, hopefully in the future it will be updated in the pool

Essen is a great map that indirect fire blows on. It is what it is.

And Refinery had some issues upon release due to my visiting my grandparents and not making adjustments, hopefully in the future it will be updated in the pool

Essen for Ostheer is dead sentence.

Take left spawn. There are 2 entrances to the buidling from the base. One bigger and one smaller, plenty of shot blockers.

Q: How I'm supposed to use Pak40 on this map when T70 or Quad roll inside? It's almost impossbile.
Q: How I'm supposed to fight BARs, Shocks inside building? Again, gardening hard.

This map clearly favour close combat but especially light vehicles vs Ostheer since using Pak on this map (except for clear lanes between buildings) is impossible.

Refinery is bit better than Essen but still, neither should be in game in current state of balance.
By that I mean panic need of Pak40 for Ostheer tostay in game vs T70 or Stuart or AEC, while Pak is almost useless on those maps.

Essen for Ostheer is dead sentence.

Take left spawn. There are 2 entrances to the buidling from the base. One bigger and one smaller, plenty of shot blockers.

Q: How I'm supposed to use Pak40 on this map when T70 or Quad roll inside? It's almost impossbile.
Q: How I'm supposed to fight BARs, Shocks inside building? Again, gardening hard.

This map clearly favour close combat but especially light vehicles vs Ostheer since using Pak on this map (except for clear lanes between buildings) is impossible.

Refinery is bit better than Essen but still, neither should be in game in current state of balance.
By that I mean panic need of Pak40 for Ostheer tostay in game vs T70 or Stuart or AEC, while Pak is almost useless on those maps.

It doesn't favor lights at all, especially with the pathing in the factories. And the maps design in and of itself is not the problem. The game balance is. Why does everything OST vs the allied counter part suck balls when it comes to cqc or light vehicle? That isn't a map problem, it is a balance problem.

Hey Trick, I have much respect for what you do. So please don't get me wrong and don't feel offended.
I was referring to all the new maps if you read my post again. This one is not that bad on the shot blockers but still, it has enough . It's very hard to use AT guns and also light vehicles. Wehrmacht grenadiers are also not that good on this one. Soviet SU85 also very hard to use.
And because it is a small and narrow map, all the action happens only in the middle so flanking is also a bit restrained. That's my humble opinion.
I had one game on your second map and there it is also hard to use AT guns. If you are a little behind on map control and fuel and you have to use them, it gets very tough.

As I said, I was referring to all new maps and there is one: Rüstungswerke.First, you can't even see your units because of this huge buildings and second, how can you use AT guns and light vehicles there? It is a mystery to me and my medium/bad skill/ranking level

But don't let my opinion affect you man, keep making maps and who knows, maybe the next on gets to be my favorite.

P.S. I love counter attack tactics, its a very cool commander

P.S.II. This about my skill level was a cheap shot!

On narrow maps use of TH and AT is even stronger, due to the fact that they have long shot paths, utilizing their range more effectively. The, on square maps (such as refinery, and essen) they will be easier to use TYPICALLY. It all depends on how you use the shot blocks. Currently the meta on a lot of maps is to sit at the mid VP with an AT/MG wall and just suck each other off, with the occasional push or far decap on another VP.

This is something intentionally that I designed to not allow (for the most part) without serious risks that is highly punishable by lack of awareness or a hard flank. For example after medium crush hits the field the entire middle "plaza" opens up in the middle area of the map on refinery, allowing you to camp if you want. But the one the far sight blockers are, it also puts you at risk from being flanked from multiple directions.

Same is true on market ruins, but to a lesser degree, this is mainly because of the heavy crush hedgerows on the middle vp, and the more narrow (rectangular) shape of the map. However the entire south flank opens up drastically once medium crush hits, allowing more camping in the south, but at the cost of the loss of the VP's, so you either push aggressively or you get cramped into the north end, once the hedgerows are gone, you can see, but have to deal with relics shit projectile pathing and it will hit the raised ground by the vp, still hampering AT walls.

This is the reason that the vps are crammed into the north most point of market ruins, to keep camping in the south to a minimum and allow players that don't move around smartly to lose cutoffs (munis and fuel) since both are much closer than they first appear. If all vps were up the middle of the map (placed on both statues for the north and south) the map would be a camp fest, whoever afk'd more at the south would win, essentially. So like I said this is why it was designed the way it was, to allow far reaching flanks and cutoff play. The map was entirely too static with the vps down the mid before, and this is much more aggressive and allows for more dynamic play.

Hold up, you tryna 1 vs 1?

It doesn't favor lights at all, especially with the pathing in the factories. And the maps design in and of itself is not the problem. The game balance is. Why does everything OST vs the allied counter part suck balls when it comes to cqc or light vehicle? That isn't a map problem, it is a balance problem.

Yes and no.

Balance is a problem - that's right but defeding myself from T70 on Langreskaya is way easier than on Essen or Refinery.

Balance won't change by 180.

Ostheer won't get Panzer 3 or powerful CC unit.

And since we now it's gonna happen, introducing maps that kill Ostheer even harder is some
misunderstanding.

Again, how am I supposed to use Pak40 on those maps? It's simply impossible and those maps favour light vehicles and mobile CC. I would understand if part of map was like this and the other part was open (something like Angovile). But here? Whole map is damn cluster, closed, unfriendly for Ostheer in every single way.

Knowing this and saying that it's the balance problem, not the map, is simply wrong.
I guess Stalingrad was also ony balance problem and it should remain?


And yes, it does favour LV in factories. T70 was just raping me left and right every single game because I wasn't able to put AT gun in position to shoot becasue everything is so closed.

Case is simple. Those maps should never became part of the game.

Well. To be honest i think that both of you have good arguments. I know that Essen isnt perfect. It cant be perfect because when the tournament was started no one was interested in playtests.
So i think that there are areas that need adjustments and/or rework (e.g. at the moment i think about a rework of the right factory hall to open it. The left hall has a lot of medium and heavy crush stuff, so it is okay).
But i think it is a big mistake to say the map is not balanced because the faction you are playing has no counter for the situation. When Ostheer always need 222 and/or Pak 40 to counter the light tanks it is broken design for the Ostheer or the light vehicles. Why is Panzerschreck no option on Essen? Because it is 120 munition? It is infantry based and light vehicles are raping infantry?
Well. Dont know. I'm not a balance expert but when a faction cant deal with light vehicles or is limited to one general meta gameplay it is faction balance problem and not the map at all.
Yesterday Tric streamed a game on Essen. The soviet player used a T-70 and tried to harass the Ostheer player. At the end the T-70 did nothing because it was killed by a well-played at mine. Essen is a good map for barbed wire, mines and at obstacles - elements that werent used often in CoH2. Perhaps i have to adjust my gameplay on Essen and not adjust to map to fit 100% to my gameplay...

Feedback (constructive criticism with proof and/or analyse!) is always welcome to fix my maps!
But as far as i know there is no detailed feedback at all from the players. It is only "this map sucks" and that wont help me to make Essen (or Westwall) better because i cant analyse map problems basing on one-line comments :-/

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Praying for lucky teller mine is usually everything Ostheer can do vs T70, Quad or Stuart.

Like mentioned before, Pak is almost impossible to use.

PzGrens witch schrecks are always an option to keep enemy at bay but I would not use them on this map. Plenty of cover, narrow passages so one shot from T70 or mortar can wipe them or kill 2-3 models.

But the most importat thing, Ostheer infantry is helpless vs Penals and vs BAR Rifles. Not a single place where axis infantry can take some advantage over blob or Penals or Rifles.

And I don't agree that it's only balance problem. Knowing what problems Ostheer has you don't introduce map which makes those problems even bigger.

So we have to any faction limiting maps?
Well. That will be a nice map pool with 2~3 maps per mode.

To be honest i think maps shouldnt be a "faction killer".
Out of my view the balance has to be adjusted to allow any faction to play on any map. Because the rest will end in a nightmare for mappers, players and balancers.
I can understand your point of view but i cant accept it because i think it can be adjusted by balance changes.
But i have reworked Essen already. It wont be better for the Ostheer but i think light vehicle gameplay and at gun gameplay should be better now.

Take a look at Angoville or Arnhem.

They are excellent.

Half opened half closed.

Great for each faction without favouring any faction or any strat.
Each map should be like that, divided into areas where CC units have advantage while on the other part, long range.

Even Semoskiy is really good. Left side is open, great for long range, middle is balanced just between while right side is quite good for mobile infantry.

Don´t get me wrong, the map is of really good quality, it is just that the current balance of the game is screwing certain factions over on multiple maps, including yours.

Nothing you can do about that. Don´t take it too seriously!

Why is the pak the only answer for OST anyways? We saw hans use nothing but pgrens in the tourney on these maps exclusively. Maybe try that? If the t70 and stuart werent wipe machines maybe it wouldnt be such a problem, but yah.

Responded while streaming, will give a proper response later on.