Dear Relic, can I have a word please? (Russian history)

i've learned a lot about the eastern front side of the war because of he inaccuracies in the campaign being exposed by knowledgeable people.

i've learned a lot about the eastern front side of the war because of he inaccuracies in the campaign being exposed by knowledgeable people.

It is well known that random posters on the internet are knowledgeable people, exposing important cover-ups by vile gaming companies and not just retarded turboautists with too much time on their hands relentlessly grinding away on boring topics in 1001 posts nobody really cares about.

It is well known that random posters on the internet are knowledgeable people, exposing important cover-ups by vile gaming companies and not just retarded turboautists with too much time on their hands relentlessly grinding away on boring topics in 1001 posts nobody really cares about.

But still you here... paradox...

Baron Karl-Heinz Helmut von Rogers has much to answer for, hailing as he apparently does from the Prussian aristocracy. He apparently still struts his estate, beating the p(h)easants, and firing at all and sundry with a rusty schmeisser, cursing the Canadian land forces.

Godwin's Law

Broken all over this thread.

And also, from a lot of nationalistic Russians here.

It kinda makes me sick this keeps on going...

Godwin's Law

Broken all over this thread.

And also, from a lot of nationalistic Russians here.

It kinda makes me sick this keeps on going...

Then you can kindly ignore this topuc

In soviet russia, post close you

+1 AAA+ MVGame

So, was the Winter War also part of the 'Great Patriotic War' or was it part of something else? I don't hear any Russians talk about that ever..?

Very true. And by the way, after war germans payed huge price for it. As man born in USSR I feel huge respect to your people after this war till now (you are from Germany as I understand). In fact, both our people believed in false leaders (no matter who was worse).
The only thing that frustrates me - some third side that speculates for marketing.

I am not of direct German decent. My father is Swiss and lived during the second world war. He
Made friends later in life with both Germans and Russians who fought during the second
World war and saw many photograph s and stories/eye witness accounts of
The horrors both sides commmitted and endured. Total war bringd total
Suffering.

Baron Karl-Heinz Helmut von Rogers has much to answer for, hailing as he apparently does from the Prussian aristocracy. He apparently still struts his estate, beating the p(h)easants, and firing at all and sundry with a rusty schmeisser, cursing the Canadian land forces.

I am not of German decent. I am Swiss/Canadian. So... I guess you're attempt to paint me as a
Nazi has failed. What a surprise.

About half way through the single player campaign.

Have to say I think it could of been handled a bit better and with better balance. Its odd that German war crimes are completely omitted. Granted that applys to COH 1 as well but there was such a large emphasis on the brutality of the Soviet side it seems only right to have some balance by showing some of the things the Germans did to the Russian people. Even if it is just following the story of one man, its hard to imagine the protagonist didn't come across German atrocities during the course of the war given how widespread the crimes where. Granted its not all bad, the ordinary Soviet soldiers are portrayed in a good light but not their superiors. There isn't any pro German viewpoint presented either, the Germans are shown in a neutral manner.

So I feel Russians do have a right to complain but from what I've read on other forums the manner in which some of posts take does their arguments no favors what so ever.

That is an inaccurate statement, and an over-dramatization of the issue at hand. Some Russians are upset about it. Honestly, Metacriticuser scores are not an accurate depiction of an entire country's opinion. I'll change my mind if a public official from the Russian Federation releases a statement, otherwise, it's just an isolated internet wave.

Relic has never downplayed the Holocaust, or the Nazi Regime. A lot of players in vCoH had, respectfully, the ignorant opinion that the Panzer Elite represented the SS. This is completely unfounded.

First off, the SS represented an "elite" only in terms of government acceptance. Most experienced Wehrmacht Generals actually disliked the SS, their tactics, and their behavior in the battlefield. The SS was so overzealous in their operations during the Invasion of Poland and other fronts, that some Wehrmacht Generals actually wanted them removed altogether, because they weren't helping.

From what I always observed in the game, the Panzer Elite always seemed like Panzer Divisions alone, which were composed of Mobile Warfare (Halftracks, PanzerGrenadiers and Medium Tanks). The Waffen-SS had its own Panzer Divisions, but they were only a fraction of what the Wehrmacht actually had.

The campaign in Relic's game presented the stories of two brothers, in a Panzer Division. That doesn't mean it approved of the Reich's policies against ethnical, religious or sexual diversity.

WW2 was a very dark period of human history, and to judge it with linear, non-objective thinking is to shoot yourself in the foot. Many of the worst things in the human condition surfaced during those years, and many of the world's technological improvements that we enjoy to this date derive directly from the Axis war effort. It doesn't mean that what the Axis did was right, but to judge that period solely on that is not only ignorant, it is dangerous.

Patriotic sentiment is not bad in and of itself. Patriotic Zeal, accepting your country is right beyond all doubt, is the first step towards making the same exact mistake.

I think that is the most intelligent thing I have ever read on a forum.

Then you can kindly ignore this topuc

The point is, I'm not happy how the nationalistic russians are carrying themselves out.

Paranoia, out of the nationalistic russians on this forum, I find you very respectable. However, there are a lot of Pro Russians with 2-3 posts only who only joined here from the metacritic crowd that don't argue and are just breaking Godwin's law.

That is just simply extremely annoying in a very decent topic.

I'm prepared to read about both sides, but please, stop breaking Godwin's Law...

Hi Curity, thanks for your perspective. I do have a question for you.

'No retreat, No surrender, No mercy' wasn't just a motto that random 'evil NKVD guys' were shouting in loudspeakers. There were no machine gunner teams behind the lines to shoot the retreating forces. Wanna know why? Because troops simply didn't retreat.
That's just a dirty cliche, popularized with 'Enemy at the Gates' movie.

This is the sort of thing that people are criticizing the Russian posters for saying. On what basis are you saying that troops didn't retreat? How do you know that's true?

The Polygon article linked earlier in this thread asked David Stone, a professional historian of Soviet military history who examines documentary evidence for a living and doesn't base his thoughts on Enemy at the Gates.

Order 227 was issued by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, and created penal battalions whose purpose was to prevent retreats by Soviet forces. From a military point of view, it was not a successful tactic. The game's use of Order 227 is, according to Stone, realistic, although specific only to certain points in the war.

"That did happen, particularly in spring 1942 around Stalingrad," he said. "Soldiers and officers who retreated or deserted might also find themselves assigned to punishment battalions which were used for particularly dangerous or bloody missions. The Soviets also used 'blocking detachments' on occasion, particularly behind punishment battalions, to shoot those retreating. Definitely happened, not necessarily common."

As far as I am aware, you are not a professional military historian of the Soviet Union, so when you tell me that Soviet soldiers didn't retreat, I have good reason to believe that you were taught an inaccurate, nationalistic version of your own history in school.

This isn't to say that Relic was entirely accurate.

He [David Stone] said that much of Relic's portrayal is rooted in fact, but soldiers being sent into battle without rifles is "something that really belongs to Russia in World War I, not the Soviet Union in World War II."

As a final comment, I do agree with the Russian posters that the CoH2 campaign did not commonly make the player feel "heroic." It's mostly just depressing, really. So while the campaign could have certainly been a lot better than it was, I don't think it's as inaccurate as people are saying. Also, Curity, the efforts of Russians in signing petitions and such are unlikely to do much of anything. CoH2 is a video game, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Writing negative reviews and telling other Russians not to buy it is the most that you can do.

I am not of German decent. I am Swiss/Canadian. So... I guess you're attempt to paint me as a
Nazi has failed. What a surprise.

Hey Rogers - it was no such thing - I was laughing at the time, that anyone might think you were from anywhere other than Canada. No hurt intended. My sincere apologies. I guess irony does not work well on the web.

it requires emoticons bloodnok
e.g.: you fucking little bitch

e.g. means example

In soviet russia, post close you

/Thread.

Hey Rogers - it was no such thing - I was laughing at the time, that anyone might think you were from anywhere other than Canada. No hurt intended. My sincere apologies. I guess irony does not work well on the web.

No worries dude, haha didn't think that it may have been sarcasm. Alls good.

Don't exaggerate his statements, man. He didn't say everyone else was lazy.

The Greeks has some serious holes in their social policies (especially for retirement) which the rest of the EU suffered for, as well. It was a bad economic decision, you can blame the government, but not the Greek people. Other countries, such as Spain, had economic holes in their countries as well, and are suffering the consequences. They were mistakes, for the most part, not laziness (Spain had the largets tourist industry before, remember?).

It is a fact that Germany carries the Euro on their shoulders, but NOT the European Union. The European Union is much more than just the coin. Germany has a lot of money for several reasons: they have always had a strong industrial infrastructure, and they are very, very organized as a culture (Germanic cultures in general, come from a tradition of being very organized. Sometimes too much).

This has nothing to do with Nazism, or the Third Reich in general. It has to do with merits the Germans, and a lot of European countries, have earned through hard work and dedication (Both World War's provided some hard lessons in that respect).

I am not very knowledgeable about Russia, or Eastern European countries as a whole, but I have met people form those countries. None of them strike me as "heartless". I can honestly say they had colder demeanor to them (I live near the Caribbean, everyone is all friendly and joyful here in comparison ), but they were very professional and hard working.

The point of the CoH2 story was not to portray the Soviets are bad. In fact, one of the many quotes in the game is "We did what was necessary". That is arguably true, to the extent that without all those deaths and sacrifices, the war could have lasted A LOT longer, and perhaps not in the way we expect it to.

The point of CoH2's story, is to portray that even if that sacrifice was necessary to achieve victory, there is a price to it. All sides in the war paid that price to some extent.

Apart from the incorrect "analysis" on the European sovereign debt crisis, strong industrialization, government structure and identity are precisely some of the important factors that amplify national socialism. Furthermore, World War 2, or any other war, is not part of a learning curve, as humanity does not gain a moral conscience from it.

"Furthermore, World War 2, or any other war, is not part of a learning curve, as humanity does not gain a moral conscience from it."

I disagree entirely. But social moral conscience is only achieved when the responsible nation accepts repsponsibility, culpability for its actions and takes steps to deliberately remedy and reconcile its past actions with the victims, alongside promising to itself that it will never again allow itself to conduct itself as it did.

This comes to the problems crux, in terms of Russian politically motivated education of children. Russian schoolbooks are currently being revised and rewritten, under dictate from Putin and the ubi2uitous "One Russia" party, to whitewash Soviet history.

The reasons for this is simple but ingenious:
-Aggrandizing Soviet history promotes partiotism and solidarity whithin Russia which is largely divided between Communist sentimentalists and New Russia right wingers.
A patriotic citizen, no matter his political beliefs, is more likely to vote, and a citizen less offended by his own nations past, is more likely to be patriotic.
-Russian democratisation has not progressed very well, being hampered in large part by the rampant lawless capitalism that annexed the nations industrial base immediately afterthe fall of the Union. (Interestingly, Nouveu Riche Russian oligarchs match, historically, in their prominence at the foundation of a democratic federarion, very much that of the US at its founding perios, however, society is no longer what it was at the declaration of independance by the US). Ironically, class struggle is now, more than ever in the Soviet period, a daily factor of Russian life..
-Whitewashing of Soviet history consolidates the voter base from both left and right, under the banner of patriotism. The left does not have to answer to critique of Soviet history, and the right is just as happy to draw its nationalistic base from people who again, due to rewritten and politically motivated history, do not perceive the similarities between the "One Russia" systems agenda, and the Central Party of the USSR.

The sacrif7ces of our grandfathers and mothers during WWI have become a political instrument. In Finland, veterans are appalled at the nationalist extremist Right that is gaining momentum here, stating "I didnt risk my life and watch my friends die so these assholes can use us as an excuse for being a bigot". Neither did Soviet veterans fight and die so their nation would have enforced a 60 year regime of oppression and suppression on Eastern Europe, nor the current day Oligarchs laughing in the face of democratic reform as the new Aristocracy.

I wish all the best to Russia, and its peoples. But its not looking too good, and there is a terrible sense of history repeating itself already for the third time... and no doubt, in part, due to revisionist and politically motivated dogma being taught in schools.

I disagree entirely. But social moral conscience is only achieved when the responsible nation accepts repsponsibility, culpability for its actions and takes steps to deliberately remedy and reconcile its past actions with the victims, alongside promising to itself that it will never again allow itself to conduct itself as it did.

Human history, filled with wars, did not improve humanity's morals. World War 2 is a prime example, as it is the bloodiest of wars, yet started only roughly 75 years ago. Individuals might learn, but the human nature does not change. The likelihood for any sovereignty to go to war, either "forced" or voluntarily, is quite high, even with institutions such as the European Union and the United Nations.