Dear Relic, can I have a word please? (Russian history)

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tl;dr/ The Russians cannot pretend as if the depiction of historical fact is somehow Russophobic, while refusing to engage with their collective responsibility for Soviet History. Especially when the Germans are continually vilified 70 years on for crimes committed at the behest of a minority of Germans and when the German nation is completely up front in the treatment of their past.

Yess...but you have doubtless heard the phrase: "To the victor the spoils?" You might point to the Nuremburg War Tribunals as an example of that.

You mention the excoriation of the German nation: you do not deal with how the media in the West perpetuate this stuff: is it, for instance, the Jewish influence in the film industry?

Even 70 years on, as you mention, there is so much propaganda from all sides that still needs to be dismantled, in order to understand things in a better perspective. I'll give you a few:

More Dutch fought in the SS than were in the Underground- maybe many were of the Friesian tribe, which crosses borders (like the Kurds, if you will)

The USA seriously wanted to dismantle Germany and reduce it to an agrarian state(in the manner of 'the Killing Fields'), with a Jewish state by its side

The UK returned hundreds, if not thousands, of Cossacks to the Soviets, meaning almost certain death

The USA seized the German rocket team from Peenemunde, who eventually landed a man on the moon. No War Crime Tribunals there- even though they used slave labour, and the UK considered Peenemunde a HUGE threat to its existence viz: V1s and V2s

UK subs post-1945 followed the U-Boat design

US combat helmets nowadays could have been designed for the Wehrmacht

Motorways are now the norm

And the USA has colonies....

Sure, the Soviets were very bad......I doubt Eastern Europe will forget for a long time...but frankly, the Germans at that time were in general terms, no better. And just as we should not hold current Germans responsible for the sins of their forebears, so also the same applies to the resident of the former Soviet Union.

It's glasnost, babe, (or ought to be)

Sure, the Soviets were very bad......I doubt Eastern Europe will forget for a long time...but frankly, the Germans at that time were in general terms, no better. And just as we should not hold current Germans responsible for the sins of their forebears, so also the same applies to the resident of the former Soviet Union.

To be clear, and I think it is to anyone who has played our games or knows anything about us, we have never and will never suggest or downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime. We have invested a great deal of time in dealing with a section of the fanbase who saw the first game as a reason to celebrate Nazis.

I was hired to moderate the chat rooms and watch replays for players with names like "JewOven". We take it seriously and have always done so.

To be clear, and I think it is to anyone who has played our games or knows anything about us, we have never and will never suggest or downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime. We have invested a great deal of time in dealing with a section of the fanbase who saw the first game as a reason to celebrate Nazis.

I was hired to moderate the chat rooms and watch replays for players with names like "JewOven". We take it seriously and have always done so.

Good to hear that. I hope this zero tolerance applys for any other fanboy aswell (in this thread soviet ones).

Good to hear that. I hope this zero tolerance applys for any other fanboy aswell (in this thread soviet ones).

So standing up for your own country is fanboysm?

To be clear, and I think it is to anyone who has played our games or knows anything about us, we have never and will never suggest or downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime.

So that whole Panzer Elite campaign where the Nazis were portrayed as the heroes of the story? That wasn't downplaying the horrors of the Nazi regime?

So that whole Panzer Elite campaign where the Nazis were portrayed as the heroes of the story? That wasn't downplaying the horrors of the Nazi regime?

Why would you mention that?

Because Noun just said Relic "has never and will never suggest or downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime". That's just not true, the Panzer Elite campaign completely glosses over the war crimes and racism that the Wehrmacht committed while the CoH 2 campaign shows in excruciating detail everything that the Russians did.
I'm not saying the Russian campaign was inappropriate like the OP, but picturing Kampfgruppe Lehr as a bunch of heroes and the Soviets as a bunch of war criminals is downplaying the horrors of the Nazi regime. Hope that clears up what I meant.

So that whole Panzer Elite campaign where the Nazis were portrayed as the heroes of the story? That wasn't downplaying the horrors of the Nazi regime?

Just because a character is the protagonist in a story, that doesn't make him a hero. And even if you consider the two brothers in Opposing Fronts' PE campaign to be heroes, it's not like they were the masterminds behind Nazi concentration camps. They were only heroes in terms of their bravery on the battlefield.

Because Noun just said Relic "has never and will never suggest or downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime". That's just not true, the Panzer Elite campaign completely glosses over the war crimes and racism that the Wehrmacht committed while the CoH 2 campaign shows in excruciating detail everything that the Russians did.
I'm not saying the Russian campaign was inappropriate like the OP, but picturing Kampfgruppe Lehr as a bunch of heroes and the Soviets as a bunch of war criminals is downplaying the horrors of the Nazi regime. Hope that clears up what I meant.

They don't gloss over it....it's just not part of that particular storyline.

So that whole Panzer Elite campaign where the Nazis were portrayed as the heroes of the story? That wasn't downplaying the horrors of the Nazi regime?

not everyone in german military was a nazi. (its naive to believe that.) they may have been the head political force but that isn't everyone to think that is silly.

war isn't in black and white (like our governments would love us to believe.) but in pixelated shades of grey.

They don't gloss over it....it's just not part of that particular storyline.

Then why did the killing of civilians and unarmed soldiers have to be part of the Russian storyline?

That's my point, I'm okay with focusing on a Wehrmacht campaign that doesn't mention the many war crimes that the Wehrmacht committed, as long as the Russian campaign is treated the same way. Instead, in the very first mission of the Russian campaign, we see conscripts gun down a surrendering unarmed German soldier.
I understand situations like that happened, I'm not naive to that, but to not picture the Wehrmacht in similar situations portrays that the Germans were somehow better or more noble.

I know that they were not, and that atrocities occurred on both sides, that doesn't come across at all in these campaigns. To say that Relic would never "downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime" is disingenuous. They're clearly ok with showing Russians do terrible things, so why were they not ok with showing the Wehrmacht?


I feel as if that may be misinterpreted, so imagine this:
I make a game based on WWII similar to CoH. In it there is an American campaign and a German campaign. The American campaign takes place in the Pacific Theater, and the depiction of American soldiers killing surrendering Japanese, as well it being implied that American soldiers had raped Japanese women. It is shown that the commanders are displeased with this, but cannot stop it. The German campaign on the other hand, neither shows nor mentions any war crimes the Wehrmacht committed. Conversely, the German campaign is rather neutral, and instead focuses on the German soldiers and their bravery in battle.

While this campaign would in fact be historically correct, as there were German units that did not commit war crimes, and there were American units that did, the vast difference in the portrayals would be offense to most Americans, and people would overall be angry at the game. The game wouldn't be avoiding the horrors of the Wehrmacht, because it had just followed a unit that did not commit them, nor would the game be lying about the Americans, but by the contrast of the portrayals it would paint the U.S. as a bunch of monsters and the Germans as just some normal guys trying to survive in a war.

I think we should give Relic the benefit of the doubt and wait for them to release the German campaign. I suspect balance will be restored.

However, no responsible (nor sane) developer or publisher of video games will depict the types of war crimes committed by the Nazis (including the Wehrmacht, complicit in all of the 'Special Action' activities in 1941-42). In much the same way as the mass campaign of rape, semi-officially sanctioned in 1945, by the Red Army in the newly-conquered Germany.

This is the reality. You could, and I wouldn't disagree, argue that this is trying to have it both ways, to decaffeinate the reality for entertainment. But then again, look at the limitations the developers have and try to see it from their PoV.

Personally, I found the overly-sympathetic treatment of the Wehrmacht in the original CoH slightly disturbing and found the pro-Nazi / SS / anti-semitic fanbois in the community vile and sickening.

Lastly, I think the OP is being deliberately obtuse. The campaign story tl;dr is this:

The Russian 'Ivan' fought a heroic and desperate war. He tried his best to defend his motherland while himself suffering under a despotic regime. A humane leader tries to reflect this in writing and is persecuted. His boss, a regime loyalist, finds a kind of redemption in mercy. The end.

To be clear, and I think it is to anyone who has played our games or knows anything about us, we have never and will never suggest or downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime. We have invested a great deal of time in dealing with a section of the fanbase who saw the first game as a reason to celebrate Nazis.

is not about downplaying them i kind of understand those horrors are "not given the spotlight" because the game is called "company of heroes".

i am quoting myself here but what the hell. on a previous post about the campaign.

i agree with sturmovik the main campaign simply put is a steaming pile of manure, it does not convey heroism in any way. and i don't think it was biased history or misinformation it was plain laziness and what i suppose lack of funding. vcoh have some nice stories even the expansions where you play as German have a heroic feel to it.

this one was more focused in war sucks and its horrible. still is not like heroes don't shine in those situations. the first mission really kills my suspension of disbelief. the soldiers charging the mgs and dying like they where made of paper. was comical at best. and did not reflect the idea of a forced push trough harsh conditions.

a simple non playable squad of conscrpits pinned by an mg while the commander voice yells at you to hurry and flank the mg because its shooting the other squad, would have reflected more the sacrifice of the soldiers and would give you an in game reason to act( you have to charge because if the squad dies you will be next) and an out game reason (the life of the allied conscripts you would not like to loose)

order 227 could be simple made to be a map where you are faced by 2 enemies: on one end the objective the German enemy. on the other the nkvd(spelled like that?) that slowly moves forward with its own army. of mgs that progressively move forward each certain amount of minutes mowing down your own troops if you don't move forward leaving you with no choice but to progress.

hell i just thought this things out as i typed and i think they would be better than the actual campaign. but that is just my opinion.

hell a tank battle where you begin with a bunch of tanks half of them with their engine damaged, you are forced to ram using your good tanks because its the only way to outmaneuver the opponents. i don't know much about history or if those scenarios would have made sense. but could not they think of something better trough game-play?

here is the reply i got.

that was the thing which i hate about coh 1 .When you play the wehrmacht and have a heroic feel to it .In my opinion that is simply bullshit.The wehrmach killed a lot of innocent people .16 year old children were 1945 in the wehrmacht.The commanders of the wehrmacht killed themselves.A game which deals with the ww2 schould not express heroism, but i can understand Sturmovik.

Criticism of the CoH2 narrative, in comparison to the vCoH and expansion campaigns, is misplaced in this sense. This is a "new" way of telling the story and engaging the player emotionally to the games continuity. Instead of making him feel a hero for the massive amounts of enemies he kills and how big his dick is, this instead makes him feel a hero by defining himself, according to his own morality, in those difficult moments when morality is, itself, in danger of annihilation.

how would you feel as Russian.

vcoh. (Americans soldiers are heroes with big penises)
vcoh expansions (British and Wehrmacht soldiers big penises heroes)

coh2 (Russians bastards......)

just look at the Dday map from coh1 and the first map from coh2 review them and tell me which one gives you a heroic feel.

the British map where you hold the hill (heroic).
the Wehrmacht map where you defend the retreat of your fellow troopers (heroic).
rusiansss(all the maps they are bastards) (ending cut-scene of an unrelatable character saying "but they are heroessss")

to me company of heroes 2 campaign is not heroic at all. this was a huge slip from relic in my opinion.¨

The Russian 'Ivan' fought a heroic and desperate war. He tried his best to defend his motherland while himself suffering under a despotic regime. A humane leader tries to reflect this in writing and is persecuted. His boss, a regime loyalist, finds a kind of redemption in mercy. The end.

you just described COH2 cut-scenes not game-play and believe me people remember more the game play than the cut-scenes. hell skip the cuteness and you'll get a different story all together. i would even dare to paste all of coh2 cut-scenes on a YouTube video. but then i would get "lawyered" if you know what i mean.

vcoh had very little cut-scenes (or i forgot them which might be the reason i make my statement).

when i bought the game the idea in my mind was.

oh my god yeah for mother russia chargeeeee! oh shit order 227 we cant retreat. fuck we must do something clever to stay alive. some men must die to garantee sucess. in other words "a company of heroes"

what i got was disappointing.....

its official now, Russians are upset about this....

http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/25/4553536/is-company-of-heroes-2-anti-russian

http://en.ria.ru/world/20130725/182423287/Russians-Mobilize-Online-to-Fight-New-War-Video-Game-Company-Heroes-2.html

That is an inaccurate statement, and an over-dramatization of the issue at hand. Some Russians are upset about it. Honestly, Metacriticuser scores are not an accurate depiction of an entire country's opinion. I'll change my mind if a public official from the Russian Federation releases a statement, otherwise, it's just an isolated internet wave.

Relic has never downplayed the Holocaust, or the Nazi Regime. A lot of players in vCoH had, respectfully, the ignorant opinion that the Panzer Elite represented the SS. This is completely unfounded.

First off, the SS represented an "elite" only in terms of government acceptance. Most experienced Wehrmacht Generals actually disliked the SS, their tactics, and their behavior in the battlefield. The SS was so overzealous in their operations during the Invasion of Poland and other fronts, that some Wehrmacht Generals actually wanted them removed altogether, because they weren't helping.

From what I always observed in the game, the Panzer Elite always seemed like Panzer Divisions alone, which were composed of Mobile Warfare (Halftracks, PanzerGrenadiers and Medium Tanks). The Waffen-SS had its own Panzer Divisions, but they were only a fraction of what the Wehrmacht actually had.

The campaign in Relic's game presented the stories of two brothers, in a Panzer Division. That doesn't mean it approved of the Reich's policies against ethnical, religious or sexual diversity.

WW2 was a very dark period of human history, and to judge it with linear, non-objective thinking is to shoot yourself in the foot. Many of the worst things in the human condition surfaced during those years, and many of the world's technological improvements that we enjoy to this date derive directly from the Axis war effort. It doesn't mean that what the Axis did was right, but to judge that period solely on that is not only ignorant, it is dangerous.

Patriotic sentiment is not bad in and of itself. Patriotic Zeal, accepting your country is right beyond all doubt, is the first step towards making the same exact mistake.

Does this forum allow me to give CombatMuffin infinite thumbs up?

Patriotic sentiment is not bad in and of itself. Patriotic Zeal, accepting your country is right beyond all doubt, is the first step towards making the same exact mistake.

Can you see any zeal in my words? I've went through the whole topic and found only one person that can be discribed like you say.
Most of people here as I can see - accepting the fact that USSR made terrible things.
But campaign shows us only this side of the coin. And without explaining to people potential motives of some dids (founded concentration camps, burned villages, ,millions of dead, wounded) you will only see irrotional brutallity in soviet people.
Yes they raped. But what would you do, after 4 years of pain, deaths and hell?
What would you do after seeing a concentration camp in action?..

There is no good emotions to in this campaign compared to previous (including Wermacht).
As was said before - you have a feeling of playing bastards in coh2.
And something tells me that it was inteded for marketing purpuses to raise sellings in west. Interesting to see an information about sold copies of Coh2 during this noise in North America.

Can you see any zeal in my words? I've went through the whole topic and found only one person that can be discribed like you say.

Who exactly are you talking about here?

I've yet to see a single German or American in this thread deny or glorify what their countries did during World War II.

Yes they raped. But what would you do, after 4 years of pain, deaths and hell?

Not that I fought in World War II or anything, but I would think after 4 years of suffering, raping somebody would not be at the fore front of my thoughts.

its official now, Russians are upset about this....

http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/25/4553536/is-company-of-heroes-2-anti-russian

http://en.ria.ru/world/20130725/182423287/Russians-Mobilize-Online-to-Fight-New-War-Video-Game-Company-Heroes-2.html

Polygon, the best source of information.





Now, let's break down Relic's representation of Russians.

The trailer for CoH2, the "forgotten sacrifice" of the Soviet people was emphasized. It practically glorified the Soviet struggle.

The first episodes of the campaign, showing the desperate circumstances of the Soviet defense and how they had to burn their own land, and the utter sadness the main character felt when he abandoned his men. I'm yet to see the villainy here.

The rescue mission as Yuri who disobeyed orders to rescue a man he admired and respected. And got himself killed for it. Where's the evil Soviet?

There are numerous things over and over that display Russian individuals in an extremely positive light, as selfless, heroic, and determined. There are also portrayals of people as bad, callous, and overly zealous. So? You're complaining that you have a story that has bad guys in it. You better never touch a book again in that case.

And, finally, in the final cut scene, the bad guy redeems himself by killing the executioner and busting the main character out of prison. So it turns out, not even the bad guys are the bad guys.

So, to summarize;

You're complaining because the Main Character disagreed with the orders of his higher ups who he believed were committing atrocities. All at the same time he was praising his soldiers for their heroism. That the main antagonist during the entire story turned out to be a morally grey character who believed he was doing the right thing and, at the end had an epiphany to turn to the side of the main character.

Somehow, this reads that "RELIC SAY SOVIET BAD PERSON, THIS BIAS VIEW NO EMPHASIS ON NAZI"

Seriously?

To be honest I am down right ashamed of relic. This was a huge mistake on their part and it absolutely ruined the campaign for me... I mean who skips the battle of kursk. tsk tsk relic