Man there's some terrible 4v4 maps out there...

You're hopefully wrong on that one, since our mapmaking team are in touch with Relic.

In Summer 2015, our mapmakers did a lot of work with Relic on revising 1v1 maps, prior to OCF.

I worked on this project with relic, and its a small add on to the current map pool. And again, they rotate out maps that are actually good without thinking, they dont push work within relic to overhaul the map pool when its necessary.

Again. The level of effort they need to make the maps shine isnt there, it hasnt been for 10 years.

I worked on this project with relic, and its a small add on to the current map pool.

I know you did, and your help was considerable and invaluable, as was the inmput of many others.

And again, they rotate out maps that are actually good without thinking, they dont push work within relic to overhaul the map pool when its necessary.

Again. The level of effort they need to make the maps shine isnt there, it hasnt been for 10 years.

The tragedy, for me, was that we seemed to have an understanding last summer, but internal Relic corporate changes overtook us and wilfully destroyed the continuation of a a constructive project, without so much as an apology or explanation. We never did know who who went, or who was left - it was all left to guesswork. That is no way for a Dev to deal with its community.

That is no reason, however, not to try again. Only connect...

I know you did, and your help was considerable and invaluable, as was the inmput of many others.



The tragedy, for me, was that we seemed to have an understanding last summer, but internal Relic corporate changes overtook us and wilfully destroyed the continuation of a a constructive project, without so much as an apology or explanation. We never did know who who went, or who was left - it was all left to guesswork. That is no way for a Dev to deal with its community.

That is no reason, however, not to try again. Only connect...

Sincerely, Good luck

La Gleize and Essen Steelworks are the only 4v4 maps I think are actually decent. Rest are either mediocre or just plain awful.

I mean:

Lienne Forest - Fuels non-contestable. Forest area is badly designed.
Lorch Assault - Five VPs, almost completely urban, silly castle thing at the bottom.
Vielsalm - Landmines.
Port of Hamburg - Limited flanking options. Encourages building rushes.
Steppes - Benefits factions with FRPs. Strongly favours Axis if they survive the first fifteen minutes.
Hill 400 - Watchtowers.
Lanzerath Ambush - Strongly favours northern side.
Hill 331 - Terrible resource layout, hedges and hills cause bad retreat paths.
Montargis Region - Five VPs. Terrible pathing. Terrible resource layout. Just terrible.
Red Ball Express - Way too lane-ey, impossible to flank.

Oh and FYI. if a mapper wanted to take the time to convert the Dust and Stones 4v4 map from COH1 into a COH2 map, it would be EXCELLENT. No one thus far has tried and it was next on my list but i tapped out of the COH world before i finished it.

Cheers

.....is your unit suppressed? Press retreat and count to 30!

Montargis would be marginally better if they'd left the fuel points where they were in the original.

The ammo hill was always problematic...If Axis held it they could come back with vet eventually, Allies less so. Moving the fuel there was just stupid.

But yeah it seems cramped and the half-built wire exploit feature is really stupidly OP on that map.

I miss the sniper wars in the middle from COH1!

My issue with several 4v4 maps is pathing. I really don't like if it is not clear if a certain unit can get to a certain point and what way it would take. Often I see the path lighting up in the minimap and end up thinking WTF. This often has to do with visuals. E.g. pipelines visually seem like it should be possible for infantry to get through, but nooo...

Montargis: Veto for me regardless of which side I play. The fuel hill makes for less than exciting games but the west side has issues as well: It's visually not very obvious which path a unit would take because the area seems fairly open but it actually isn't. The pipeline on the far west is totally weired, too.

Hill 331: Another instant veto. The hill in the center is a mess pathing-wise, and frankly I dislike the pink soil...

Lorch Assault: I do play that map, but everything around the castle is just a mess. Which is a pity, as the loading screen suggests this would be the centerpiece of the map but in terms of game play it is the opposite. The lower lane is as laney as it gets and so remote from everything else. The center and North is ok, though.

BTW a major issue with large maps, 4v4 or no, is that pathing often breaks if units are directed to move too great a distance.

And 'too great a distance' is unfortunately not that far.

BTW a major issue with large maps, 4v4 or no, is that pathing often breaks if units are directed to move too great a distance.

And 'too great a distance' is unfortunately not that far.

This can be fixed ahead of time with iterative testing. Finding retreat paths from all areas of the map is a must for any competitive map. Big maps just take more time to find all the paths thats all.

I dont think its a major issue, just another design element of any map.

watching newbs or ai suicide stuff into the minefields on Vielsalm is always enjoyable. unfortunately, that's the only thing I enjoy about that map. Trying to help allies on the other side of the map is a good way to lose infantry. it is very difficult to soft retreat in deep snow and hitting the retreat will send your guys through the minefield. and my goodness that is one long retreat.

This can be fixed ahead of time with iterative testing. Finding retreat paths from all areas of the map is a must for any competitive map. Big maps just take more time to find all the paths thats all.

I dont think its a major issue, just another design element of any map.

I'm not talking retreat paths, I mean at a certain length pathfinding just starts bugging out. Pathing will stop calculating for objects, and often times the unit will just stop a portion of the distance because the original command was too far.

In fact I think retreating is the only thing that tends to not break pathing over distance.

(Also, this reminded me of how shift-commands are buggy as hell.) But I have to say I have not taken the time to specifically test for this, this is only a perception of experience, and based on how the WorldBuilder's ruler is broken to hell and demonstrates a similar pattern.

I'm not talking retreat paths, I mean at a certain length pathfinding just starts bugging out. Pathing will stop calculating for objects, and often times the unit will just stop a portion of the distance because the original command was too far.

In fact I think retreating is the only thing that tends to not break pathing over distance.

(Also, this reminded me of how shift-commands are buggy as hell.) But I have to say I have not taken the time to specifically test for this, this is only a perception of experience, and based on how the WorldBuilder's ruler is broken to hell and demonstrates a similar pattern.

Aha got it

While I was reminiscing about my brave storms in another thread, I mentioned the Vire River map. And seeing as I'm waffling, I thought I might as well mention here why some people like maps like Vire, and like Scheldt. Because people still shake their head in wonderment about Scheldt being popular.

The thing is that if you are not a high APM player, you approach the game in a very different way. It's valuable to you to have a few powerful chokes, because you're not going to win by micro-ing your units, you're going to win - or lose - by build choices, by timing, and by coordination with your team mates. If you win band selecting all your units and A-moving them, that is a perfect valid victory, because it means that you produced the right composition of units, you correctly predicted how the unit AI would path and target select, and you had chosen the right moment to commit to battle: either because you and your allies were confident and ready to go, or because something else happened on the battlefield that opened an opportunity.

That isn't how most of the people here play, but it is a fun and perfectly legitimate way to play, and for that reason, choke-point maps will probably always have sufficient popularity to justify keeping them in rotation.

OR, you love arty and just build nothing but mortars, stuka's and LefH