Tank Destroyer Time to Kill stats

In terms of cost efficacy yeah, best TD? No

Stug pen reliably anything you oppose to with a good dps, gain armor with vet and TWP. all of that for 90 fuel. You only need to have a pair of it + vet1 to counter anything heavy USF/Sov and Brit can field.
It is the best TD in game because of its cost efficiency, get two of them (180 fuel) and next you can focus on killing infantry, nothing under 300 fuel cost will pass through your stugs.
To do the same, USF need to field 2 jacksons: 250 fuel, Sov need to field 2 SU-85: 260 fuel, and Brit 2 FF: 310 fuel.
Yes those deal more alpha damage than stugs, yes as MrSmith says they are better in pack, but who can afford to maintain more than 2 of them with the rest of their army? Your opponent? Well that's probably because he outplayed you.

Now, something to keep in mind is that they are best TD but also not OP at all, you can counter them by many ways which made them simply balanced.

Personally, I think that the new firefly is waaaaayyy stronger with the new Tulips. In team-games, the stunning tulips make fielding expensive vehicles a joke, really. With the reload speed bonus, it's a straight buff, really.

But the tulips are not that easy to hit against vehicle in move + they share CD with main gun. In 1v1 it's hardly an issue I guess.

Stug pen reliably anything you oppose to with a good dps, gain armor with vet and TWP. all of that for 90 fuel. You only need to have a pair of it + vet1 to counter anything heavy USF/Sov and Brit can field.
It is the best TD in game because of its cost efficiency, get two of them (180 fuel) and next you can focus on killing infantry, nothing under 300 fuel cost will pass through your stugs.
To do the same, USF need to field 2 jacksons: 250 fuel, Sov need to field 2 SU-85: 260 fuel, and Brit 2 FF: 310 fuel.
Yes those deal more alpha damage than stugs, yes as MrSmith says they are better in pack, but who can afford to maintain more than 2 of them with the rest of their army? Your opponent? Well that's probably because he outplayed you.

Now, something to keep in mind is that they are best TD but also not OP at all, you can counter them by many ways which made them simply balanced.

StuGs are outclassed once 60 range TDs hit the field. Thus I wouldn´t count them as the best TD in the game. Sure, they out dps those but have to engage in unfavourable engagements with their 50 range. StuGs also go down very fast.

The Panther on the other hand is pure garbage in its current state.

But the tulips are not that easy to hit against vehicle in move + they share CD with main gun. In 1v1 it's hardly an issue I guess.

I'll have to doublecheck whether there is a CD with the main-gun. Most of the time I use tulips, the fire just after the main gun has fired. Thus, the cooldown (if it even exists) is not noticeable.

With the tulip stun, it is a hell lot easier to hit moving targets. Most axis tanks will have to stop (decelerate) to really hit anything. Thus, if you lead the tulips adequately enough, the first will freeze the target dead-on-the-spot and the second will also hit (modulo elevation issues).

JTs are also not an issue in 1v1s. However, they are very efficient for their cost for anything higher than that. That's not a good excuse to leave the tulips at this state.

I have updated the original post to show what happens when you group 2-of-the-same-TD to hit the same target.

As you can see, slower-hitting targets benefit more than faster-hitting targets when you group them.
- You can read the Command Panther x2 example as 1 Panther and 1 Command panther hitting the marked target at the same time.
- 4x Tulips hitting the same target is lulworthy

Edit: I just noticed that the exported data also contains the KV2. The data does not account for any bonuses KV2 receives when docked (which I haven't checked yet)



Personally, I think that the new firefly is waaaaayyy stronger with the new Tulips. In team-games, the stunning tulips make fielding expensive vehicles a joke, really. With the reload speed bonus, it's a straight buff, really.

Not to mention Firefly with command tank (uc) aura is complete bonker, 2 of them can smash Ele from the front with Tulips.

I'll have to doublecheck whether there is a CD with the main-gun. Most of the time I use tulips, the fire just after the main gun has fired. Thus, the cooldown (if it even exists) is not noticeable.

With the tulip stun, it is a hell lot easier to hit moving targets. Most axis tanks will have to stop (decelerate) to really hit anything. Thus, if you lead the tulips adequately enough, the first will freeze the target dead-on-the-spot and the second will also hit (modulo elevation issues).

JTs are also not an issue in 1v1s. However, they are very efficient for their cost for anything higher than that. That's not a good excuse to leave the tulips at this state.

Well, I rememeber when I used tulips last time that Firefly was waiting to shoot like 5-6secs after tulips.
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I did I test.
First shot -> tulips -> second shot.

Tulips can be used AFTER shot, but after trulips, FF needs like 10-11secs to fire again.

Abilities that are regularly used aren't exactly edge cases ...

Well, I rememeber when I used tulips last time that Firefly was waiting to shoot like 5-6secs after tulips.
____

I did I test.
First shot -> tulips -> second shot.

Tulips can be used AFTER shot, but after trulips, FF needs like 10-11secs to fire again.

You are right. The tulip ability forces the Firefly to reload AFTER the ability has elapsed. Thus, you should add 3 seconds for the Tulip-version of the results (assuming the player uses the tulips immediately after shooting the main gun).

PS: I am now presenting the JP4 stats in two lines. One assumes the ambush bonus (vet5), and one does not. My previous results for JP4 contained a bug, in that I forgot to add the reload cycle for the ambush bonus (The reload time of JP4 at Vet5 is something between 3-4 seconds).

StuGs are outclassed once 60 range TDs hit the field. Thus I wouldn´t count them as the best TD in the game. Sure, they out dps those but have to engage in unfavourable engagements with their 50 range. StuGs also go down very fast.

The Panther on the other hand is pure garbage in its current state.

Like many you are simply mixing definition between best and OP. Not having the highest range make them balance with their price and moment you can field them. Same with not having turrets.

Invissed unnecessary flame/offtopic post and its quotes.

These are great stats and all, but I think it should be particularly stressed how utterly important positioning is in this game. The conditions for these stats are stacked to produce the highest possible performance from unturreted tank destroyers.

That's what people should be reading from this. These stats are showing you exactly how important it is to utilize positioning to the best of your ability.

These are great stats and all, but I think it should be particularly stressed how utterly important positioning is in this game. The conditions for these stats are stacked to produce the highest possible performance from unturreted tank destroyers.

This, I would hope that turretless TDs that can only do AT would be better in that role than med+ tanks with anti-inf capability.

These stats go to show just how great the StugIIIG is at dealing damage. However what they don't show is how much it starts to struggle once firefly, Jackson, SU-85, and even comet (which Stug has no range overmatch against) hit the field, or how much the Stug relies on spotting scopes to really shine.

On the subject of panther, I think it would be alright with a small straight buff to its reload time. I think the intended role of the unit is clear enough: a highly mobile, reasonably durable counter to enemy tanks, which is itself vulnerable to enemy TDs firing at long range. It just can't do that role very well right now due to its low lethality and buffs to allied TDs which have diminished its durability advantage.

If somebody believes that there's any single datapoint missing from my table, please, state, concretely what that is (e.g., "why didn't you include the performance of Command Panther without mark target on?" -- in fact I have; it performs exactly the same as the vanilla Panther). I believe I have included the performance of all mentionworthy tanks, when both when their abilities are used, and without.

To my knowledge, Brit Tank commander is the only upgrade that affects tank-killing performance. Given that the upgrade is such a no-brainer, it makes no sense to present tank-commander-free tanks.

This, I would hope that turretless TDs that can only do AT would be better in that role than med+ tanks with anti-inf capability.

These stats go to show just how great the StugIIIG is at dealing damage. However what they don't show is how much it starts to struggle once firefly, Jackson, SU-85, and even comet (which Stug has no range overmatch against) hit the field, or how much the Stug relies on spotting scopes to really shine.

On the subject of panther, I think it would be alright with a small straight buff to its reload time. I think the intended role of the unit is clear enough: a highly mobile, reasonably durable counter to enemy tanks, which is itself vulnerable to enemy TDs firing at long range. It just can't do that role very well right now due to its low lethality and buffs to allied TDs which have diminished its durability advantage.

With the exception of Panther, Pershing, Comet and M10, neither turreted TD is actually able to flank. The jackson is way too fragile, and the firefly is, also, relatively fragile with a terrible turret traverse. In fact, the Panther also completely sucks at flanking, due to its low rate of fire, and the fact that it will sacrifice its armour (its only saving grace) when diving in.

Thus, the Jackson, the Firefly and the Panther will have to engage the target from the front, just like the Stug.

Yes, the Stug does have the issue of short range. However, even that is not a problem with the TWP. The TWP ability will completely disable the maingun of the target for 15 seconds, thus allowing the Stug to close in fearlessly.

In fact, the Stug is safer to use than the Panther when the dedicated TDs start rolling in. That's due to TWP and the price of the Stug. When the enemy masses their TDs, so can you your Stugs, and then you can bumrush them.

To me, the travesty is that the Stug doesn't require any sort of dedicated investment from the player, yet performs nearly the same as the dedicated turreted TDs:
- It costs nearly half the resources as the dedicated TDs
- Even if you buy it too early, it costs 8 popcap, thus you don't miss out much, by having it around.

Stug is extremely cost efficient as mentioned but the SU-76 is also. When vetted is poses a serious threat to Heavy tanks...

Quick question, why would your opponent start massing unturreted Tank Destroyers if you're building unturreted Tank Destroyers or vice versa?

If I saw my opponent building SU85s I'd build a few paks or get pgrens with schrecks instead of StuGs.