Cyberbullying Legislation In Poland

Dear all,

I would love to write about strategy, balance, Relic's shortcomings, tournaments and all the stuff this community loves to talk about. I am not doing that today.

This post is about a very serious matter that cannot be ignored. As a community, I like to think we have a responsibility to take care of our fellow community members. As individuals, we have rights and obligations. Some of our rights, like freedom of speech and having fun, meet their boundary when they get in the way of other's rights. It is unfair and unreasonable for me to exercise my rights to the detriment of others. It is plainly wrong to voluntarily inflict psychological distress to others through cyberbullying (for a definition of the term, please see: https://www.stopbullying.gov/cyberbullying/what-is-it/).

This post is about BartonPL and particularly, but not exclusively, his constant abuse to Shadowwada.

I started following Shadow for some months now because his streams are not only very educational, but also very fun to watch. The guy has a talent for stand-up comedy and will answer any question put to him regarding better strategies, counter strategies and game-related stuff. In the past two or three weeks, I have noticed BartonPL continuously harassing Shadowwada for some reason that is unknown to me. A non-comprehensive list of BartonPL's actions include having stream-sniped Shadow's stream, abused Shadowwada by constantly following him on Twitch while Shadow is playing (i.e. I counted 8 follows in one 10-minute game), and has also used very offensive fake names (i.e. shadowwadapoosyloser, waddacrybaby, waddapronoob or similar - I didn't write them down). There was one particular stream where Shadowwada was so stressed from the constant harassment that he stated he was quitting the community altogether. He did so with a broken voice and teary eyes because he was obviously under a lot of emotional distress caused by BartonPL and his deliberate actions (and fueled by idiots in Wadda's stream that seemed to find the ongoing harassment very funny). Even tonight while I was watching VonIvan's game against Hans, I saw that "someone" under the name of Waddapoosywhinner started following VonIvan. I am positive, but not 100% certain, that this was BartonPL because Shadowwada said in passing during one of his streams this week that he had complained to Relic about BartonPL, and Relic was looking into suspending BartonPl.

Enough is enough.

I am inviting members of this community to publicly denounce BartonPL's antics. I am specially inviting Shadowadda and any victims of BartonPL to provide evidence of the effect that BartonPL's abuse has had on them. BartonPL is obviously part of the invitation in case he wishes to comment on anything said here. The purpose behind this invitation is twofold:

First, we need to raise awareness regarding cyberbulluing in our community. Cyberbullying has had very dramatic consequences for its victims, including suicide. I know as I write this that some of you might dismiss this post, but cyberbullying needs to be stopped at the outset. Who knows how certain individuals feel or will act when being confronted to heavy and relentlessness bullying? In denouncing BartonPl and any other bullies, we are keeping our community and fellow gamers safe.

Second, I wish to publicly warn BartonPL and any bullies out there that there are laws in each of your jurisdictions against cyberbullying. Specifically Poland passed a law in 2011 that provides for jail in case of persistent online harassment. See, for instance, http://ac.els-cdn.com/S1877042813050489/1-s2.0-S1877042813050489-main.pdf?_tid=81a0ab6c-6be5-11e6-a3a1-00000aacb360&acdnat=1472254594_d67e13ebeba7f8f05fb68a2a64e51b60. I'm not making empty statements. There are legal consequences to what BartonPl is doing and people should be made aware of this to discourage similar behavior.

I hope my post will not be misrepresented as a call against occasional jokes, exceptional angry outbursts, or some well-intended but short-lived trolling. All of these things happen as long as they are spontaneous. BartonPL is, however, no ordinary "troll". He persistently targets Shadowwada, humiliates him online and constantly offends Shadow in Shadow's own stream. There is no reasonable justification to such behavior, that is self-evidently publicly displayed to inflict more damage to Shadow (for instance, one thing would be to criticize Shadow in the forums, and another to call him poosy in his own stream).

Lastly, query whether it makes sense for Relic, Steam and/or SEGA to keep ignoring bullies like BartonPL. From a legal perspective, they profit from a product and an online platform that allows players to interact. Can they turn a blind eye to cyberbullying while making revenue off the product? What if something were to happen to a cyberbullying victim? Would a judge in any respectable jurisdiction be sympathetic to Relic, Steam or SEGA if they acknowledge they were aware of the bullying, but did nothing to prevent or stop it?

Kind regards,
Napito

Not to be a prick, but denouncing Barton won't do anything. None of us are going to sue him, it's unlikely the Polish government will do anything or find out about it.

Trolling is a risk you take as a streamer. It's happened to most of the coh2 streamers. Barton is an asshole for harassing him and took it way too far by doing it repeatedly, but if you're gonna stream, you gotta have some thick skin. I heard Wadda chilled out a bit anyways; he seemed to be overreacting in the past.

Shadowwadda should contact relic, steam, twitch, coh2.org staff, and work to get Barton banned/punished. That's really all there is to it.

I do not believe we should have a witch hunt. I also understand that Shadowwadda's thread was locked for a reason. Free speech does not mean an absolution of the consequences, from both sides.

I am no mod, but I suspect this will be locked.

May I advise those who participate in this thread to tread lightly, if at all.

If running to our legal overlords and getting them to use violence or the threat of violence is our recourse when there's social discord, then God help us for civility is lost.
So, too, a rational sense of justice. The punishment meted out is far and away not likely to be proportional to the crime as it ought be, and restitution is not likely to be made. Nor is there surety to trust the psychological harm done to a person: put better, laws which depend on uncertain harm, especially those that also depend on the 'criminal' having certain thoughts or attitudes towards people, are incredibly dangerous for they are likely to cause punishment far out of proportion with the wrong done, and thus create injustice.
It's best to drop this before even more harm comes to either side.

IT'S DA FUKIN INTERNET FOLKS, DA LAST THING WE NEED IS GOVERNMENT'S CENSORSHIP/REGULATIONS ON RANDOM GAME FORUMS.

Let's face it, Wada is a special snowflake with anger management issues. If you don't have a thick skin and brush off malicious comments/trolling why bother streaming at all?

IT'S DA FUKIN INTERNET FOLKS, DA LAST THING WE NEED IS GOVERNMENT'S CENSORSHIP/REGULATIONS ON RANDOM GAME FORUMS.

Let's face it, Wada is a special snowflake with anger management issues. If you don't have a thick skin and brush off malicious comments/trolling why bother streaming at all?

There's certainly something to be said for estoppel and easement. Trolls essentially have right of way as it is the normal operation of the internet. As Antilles said: "Trolling is a risk you take as a streamer. It's happened to most of the coh2 streamers."

EDIT 2: Laws against cyber harassment are largely absurd. Legality doesn't equate to morality anyways, so:
The pivotal question for me is what degree of psychological harassment actually breaks the non-aggression principle, or rather the natural negative right to not be aggressed against? I'm pretty sure it's "there is no degree," because nobody is truly forced to be beholden to the words of another. As Marcus Aurelius said, 'they're just words my nigga.' Anyways, if someone thinks they are so beholden then they are mentally enslaving themselves, and that is no fault of the other. Furthermore, there's the question of who owns the property (implying where he lives, where Wada lives, and all across the servers and within their programs, you sillies) where Barton did the harassment, and whether Barton is violating their rights as a property owner by engaging in activity that they can rightfully prohibit.

None of us are going to sue him, it's unlikely the Polish government will do anything or find out about it.

Heavenly Father, let this cup pass. The state is not a legitimate plaintiff, and this is incredibly small fry. If they have a financial incentive--which means absurd penalties against Barton, and, hotel foxtrot, that would be massive injustice nowhere near in double proportion to his 'crimes.'


But, most of all, this is the best solution: "I heard Wadda chilled out a bit anyways..."
This is called civility. I sincerely hope Wada ain't gonna go whining to some gov't goons to come and bust Barton, and I hope he finds inner peace. We don't have to resort to violence--that would be stupid, again barbarous and uncivilized, and unjust (I think in this case). Justice is easily abused in our hands, but mercy is divine.

Cyberbullying is the best part about the internet. Why take that away.

Anger management class for Wada is the best solution

Relic Entertainment - PinkShirtDay (StopBullying)

We're celebrating #PinkShirtDay at the office! Let's #PinkItForward and stand up against bullies both on and offline!

https://twitter.com/relicgames/status/570712511646867456

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDJHVT4qAFS/

relicentertainment Last month we celebrated @pinkshirtday. We made a commitment to stand up against bullies both on and offline -- and we challenge you to too! #PinkItForward #StopBullying #PSD2016 #Latergram

Cyberbullying (especially sociopathic behavior) is a very real community threat that should not be taken lightly. But I'm not sure banning just Barton would accomplish much without raising awareness within the community. One of the best defense against bullying is community awareness so I applaud all that keep talking about it.
Psychology 101, no one is immune or invincible. ALL can potential be traumatized. The emotional trauma can be equal to torture. Psychological torture undermines the very ability to think which can then lead to suicide.

Believe it or not, there are highly intelligent cyberbullies out there (sociopaths don't feel empathy) that have perfected psychological torture and manipulation down to a fine art. Trust me you don't want to invite these bullies/sociopaths into the community. Within sandbox games such as EVE online there are bullies that will spend well over one year to get what they want (humiliate their victim both privately and publicly). You think this community problem will just go away by itself? lol. Not so.
There is plenty of evidence that proves a direct link between Cyberbullying and depression/suicide. It's escalating at an alarming rate. This is fact, like it or not.

Personal, I have seen firsthand how destructive it can be in both real life and online. My sister was bullied in school which leads to many years of depression (20 years) and suicide threats. Think for a second what that can do to a family let alone a whole community.
I have played EvE online for 10 years (from beta to 2013) and witness how bullies can destroy the community inside out. I'm an old school director/admin of the RAZOR Alliance. I was a personal friend with the female CEO of Roving Guns (Niffer Mac), which many RZR vets (or former) would consider the "cultural heart of the alliance" (now just a shadow of its former self). RG was behind RAZOR's funny WW2 propaganda posters which most EVE vets will remember.

RAZOR WW2 propaganda movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuREEonWGJ8 (77.685 views)
WW2 Propaganda Posters (viewed by the millions at EVE-O forums)
http://propaganda.eve-razor.com/

Not saying this to win a popularity contest but just to prove I have the credentials to speak about Cyberbullying.

Now I know Kyle from Relic has been in contact with CCP community team (@SveinnKjarval) and like what they have been doing after watching #GDC16.
https://twitter.com/kyfehr/status/717773662925905920
https://twitter.com/sveinnkjarval

@SveinnKjarval is one of the reasons I still respect CCP as an EVE online fan. Keep in mind that EVE is a sandbox game and a "social experiment" what happens when gamers are given the freedom to do whatever they like (almost). There is both heroes and villains in that sandbox or EVE would be dead.
BUT, even within a dark universe such as EVE Online, CCP takes Cyberbullying extremely seriously which they have proven in words and action.

Here is one "positive story" where I believe CCP acted correctly to a possible suicide attempt due to Cyberbullies;
http://jestertrek.blogspot.dk/2014/03/yuppie-nuremberg-defense.html
Yuppie Nuremberg defense

*SNIP*Finally, the victim says "i am going to go blow my brains out in my garage. bye everyone". He's told "don't miss"(!) (sic). He disconnects.

I take a moment here to briefly remind you: this is the community that you are part of.

The victim tells the story of what happened next on Reddit:
Hey guys, so I am writing to you right now because the police literally just woke me up (4:30 am here) asking if I play an online game called EVE and that CCP games actually contacted INTERPOL (I live in Canada- that's x-country police work right there) who then contacted the RCMP who just dispatched two officers to my house because I said I "was going to blow my fucking brains out" in Local Chat at Jita because of a loss earlier. I imagine the follow up text (body disposal, cleanup) that another player and I were openly joking about made itself to the report however the officers were kind enough to only mention the fact I had said I want to end my own life in an online video game. The officers then asked me if I have a history of self-harm, and if I had any firearms in the house (no, to both) Lesson learned here? Watch what you fucking say in an online game! Even when you say something to somebody specifically, someone may take it out of context and get fucking INTERPOL involved. What kind of international suicide watch list did I unintentionally end up on?
That's the CCP Community team making a hard, necessary, and correct choice. CCP VesnaPrishla states:
This falls under general policies of most MMOs and if it even helps prevent suicide of one person out of 100, its worth it. We are sorry if you had a bad experience regarding this and we hope you will understand the reasoning behind it.

Far from being angry, the guy replies:
If anything, I should thank you guys... If it had actually been a real case... You would have saved my life.

CCP Falcon adds:
We take all cases of this nature extremely seriously, and contact the appropriate authorities whenever a case like this arises.

We would far rather wake someone at 4:30am and make sure that they are okay, than hear that someone had harmed themselves and we hadn't responded to either a cry for help, or a notification from a concerned member of the community that someone had expressed an interest in harming themselves.
And this is the correct choice. Moreover, it is the right one. The Yuppie Nuremberg defense is no defense at all when it comes to this kind of situation.

Now, thank Heaven this was not a real suicide threat and this player is OK. He was joking, CCP took it seriously, and that was the right choice. Another Redditor, a non CCP employee in a similar job, put it this way: "I'll gladly take 20 pissed of players that rage at me afterwards if it means I can save 1 dude's life." Yes. I'm glad the Community team is willing to be proactive in this situation even if some of those on Reddit bring up the specter of Big Brother. It's the right thing to do. So thank you to the CCP Community team for doing it!

But let's also not forget how this started. More to come.

So you still think this is a joke? Well, this is nothing. There are many other stories out there that take bullying/sociopathic behaviour to a whole new level of nastiness.

IT'S DA FUKIN INTERNET FOLKS, DA LAST THING WE NEED IS GOVERNMENT'S CENSORSHIP/REGULATIONS ON RANDOM GAME FORUMS.

Let's face it, Wada is a special snowflake with anger management issues. If you don't have a thick skin and brush off malicious comments/trolling why bother streaming at all?

You forgot to say that he has a massive ego and also suck at the game.

and I learned recently that he used to be a LoL "pro" ROFL, that is so decadent.

Barton on the other hand is a veteran in the coh community, if he is banned this will be the last nail on the relic coffin.

You forgot to say that he has a massive ego and also suck at the game.

and I learned recently that he used to be a LoL "pro" ROFL, that is so decadent.

Barton on the other hand is a veteran in the coh community, if he is banned this will be the last nail on the relic coffin.

Nah, if what Barton doing is as bad as described, it is cutting the cancer from this community.

There's certainly something to be said for estoppel and easement. Trolls essentially have right of way as it is the normal operation of the internet. As Antilles said: "Trolling is a risk you take as a streamer. It's happened to most of the coh2 streamers."

EDIT 2: Laws against cyber harassment are largely absurd. Legality doesn't equate to morality anyways, so:
The pivotal question for me is what degree of psychological harassment actually breaks the non-aggression principle, or rather the natural negative right to not be aggressed against? I'm pretty sure it's "there is no degree," because nobody is truly forced to be beholden to the words of another. As Marcus Aurelius said, 'they're just words my nigga.' Anyways, if someone thinks they are so beholden then they are mentally enslaving themselves, and that is no fault of the other. Furthermore, there's the question of who owns the property (implying where he lives, where Wada lives, and all across the servers and within their programs, you sillies) where Barton did the harassment, and whether Barton is violating their rights as a property owner by engaging in activity that they can rightfully prohibit.



Heavenly Father, let this cup pass. The state is not a legitimate plaintiff, and this is incredibly small fry. If they have a financial incentive--which means absurd penalties against Barton, and, hotel foxtrot, that would be massive injustice nowhere near in double proportion to his 'crimes.'


But, most of all, this is the best solution: "I heard Wadda chilled out a bit anyways..."
This is called civility. I sincerely hope Wada ain't gonna go whining to some gov't goons to come and bust Barton, and I hope he finds inner peace. We don't have to resort to violence--that would be stupid, again barbarous and uncivilized, and unjust (I think in this case). Justice is easily abused in our hands, but mercy is divine.

How is Wada estopped from arguing that he's being harassed? Has he done similar things to Barton? I think you could make a fair-ish assumption of the risk argument, but IIRC that wouldn't really apply if we're talking about an intentional tort.

The state sues people all the time, and rightly so in a common law context. More often than not in my experience, its not really about the money or an individual conviction so much as the principle of law. Besides which, cyberharassment is a real thing which really should be penalized. I'm not familiar enough with the Wada-Barton beef to really say much about whether it qualifies. TBF I doubt that it does. But I do know prosecutors who have dealt with suicides resulting from extremes of this kind of behavior, so yeah, there really does have to be a tool in the toolkit to deal with it.

@Napito @sturmtigercobra It's nice to see some people actually acknowledge that this is actually a legit issue that should be dealt with.

Unlike the many posts who will refuse to grapple with it by saying "get thicker skin", "you should expect this" etc etc. I have to agree with wada that crap like this shouldn't have a place in the community.

We have a very small but tight knit community the last thing we need is to be divided, and to encourage stupid trolling from barton and others, unless you were intending to destroy the community once and for all.

I already thought in vcoh, if you get triggered by Barton, you should maybe smoke a big joint and then realize, he is just a trolling.


This winethread shows you got triggered. Take a Chillpill and either learn to troll back, or ignore it.

Like for real, Barton trolls since 10 years, if you still fall for it, it is your own fault. KappaClaus

I don't care .

If you show weakness everybody gonna use it.

Tl;dr

there are assholes everywhere. is barton an asshole for doing that stuff? yeah.

should we make a big deal out of it or (God forbid) get a government involved?

NO.

It has to be really sad if you must bully/troll someone to have fun in your life

It has to be really sad if you must bully/troll someone to have fun in your life

+1