Ostheer Grenadiers

They should change it so you can only pick up 1 LMG from weapon racks and tweak the performance of those LMG to make it fair.

allies are allowed to walk around without getting suppressed!! but axis infantry must die asap

the quality of your posts is astoundingly bad and you should feel bad

They should change it so you can only pick up 1 LMG from weapon racks and tweak the performance of those LMG to make it fair.

Sounds like a solution...and a good one

Why?
This horse is so dead and beaten up there is just a crater in the place it was.

Nothing will change, because that isn't how the game is balanced.
EOT and /thread really.

Conscripts atleast have utility and good durability at vet3. Doctrinal ppsh is really good on them.

Give conscripts dp28 upgrade with t4. That way grens can upgrade g43s doctrinally. I see no issues with this. Then every faction has equal options. Cons and grens would finally be able to not get outscaled as hell if they chose certain doctrines.

Conscripts atleast have utility and good durability at vet3. Doctrinal ppsh is really good on them.

Give conscripts dp28 upgrade with t4. That way grens can upgrade g43s doctrinally. I see no issues with this. Then every faction has equal options. Cons and grens would finally be able to not get outscaled as hell if they chose certain doctrines.

You want to go this way then?

Ok.

Grens have utility, therefore can't compete against tommies or rifles, doctrinally they have even more utility on form of map hack and good all-range weapon(in case 240mp60muni squad being weaker then 280mp120/140muni squads for whatever reason isn't enough of an argument for you).

You want to go this way then?

Ok.

Grens have utility, therefore can't compete against tommies or rifles, doctrinally they have even more utility on form of map hack and good all-range weapon(in case 240mp60muni squad being weaker then 280mp120/140muni squads for whatever reason isn't enough of an argument for you).

but tommies and rifles have plenty of utility as well?

requires a crawler and you remembering that this ability even exists

so how do you deal with main line infantry then?

You want to go this way then?

Ok.

Grens have utility, therefore can't compete against tommies or rifles, doctrinally they have even more utility on form of map hack and good all-range weapon(in case 240mp60muni squad being weaker then 280mp120/140muni squads for whatever reason isn't enough of an argument for you).

A 240 mp squad still loses to a 280 mp squad. Hasn't changed. (Btw g43 offers no long range dps boost, simply turns the weakest baseline squad in game into a brawler against allied squads that have more dps in short-mid. MAKES TOTAL SENSE LOL, g43 is a joke upgrade by itself) a 240mp 105 muni squad (lmg42+g43) STILL LOSES to a 280 mp 120 muni squad. Because for one, g43s no dps long range, still lower dps than a bar rifle. Doctrinal while allies dual equip non doc.

The matchup doesnt change at all. All it does is give grens more options for scaling if they choose to pay for them. Same exact thing allies enjoy.

Funny, I offer the same thing to conscripts, but because I offer the same to grens you jump on the nope train because you can't fathom grens actually being complete shit, hopelessly outscaled from start to finish vs western front allies.

People might go conscripts if they actually had some late game scaling upgrades, WHICH THEY DONT.

Riddle me this katitof.

but tommies and rifles have plenty of utility as well?

requires a crawler and you remembering that this ability even exists

so how do you deal with main line infantry then?

Well, rifles can't heal other squads, tommies don't have AT snare or even remotely useful nades

And I suppose the same way it always happened-with sniper or more then 1 HMG.

Grenadiers have a few issues but they won't be solved by adding weapon upgrades.

Problems:

- Easily one-shot by explosives. Increasing squad spacing and/or making most (not Sturmtiger/B4/AVRE etc.) explosive weapons extremely unlikely to one-shot a squad (lower kill radius against infantry, increased damage radius to compensate) would improve the situation.

- Illogical reinforcement cost. Most widely-used squads have reinforcement costs at roughly 10% of squad cost or below. 5-man and 6-man squads are naturally in this range by virtue of the standard formula being half squadcost/(# models) but most four man squads have had their reinforcement costs adjusted to move them into this range (Obersoldaten, Panzergrenadiers, Infantry Sections, etc.). Grenadiers have not, so a Gren model actually costs more to reinforce than an IS model. Changing the reinforcement cost percentage to 40% would reduce their reinforcement cost from 30 to 24 (PG 34, IS 28, RM 28, Cons 20).

- Field First Aid is still one of the worst veterancy abilities. It takes two squads out of combat for 10-20 seconds to half-heal one of them for 20 munitions. Making it a full heal and reducing the cost to 0-10 munitions will improve the ability immensely. Even after improving this ability, replacing it on every squad except for Pioneers and Osttruppen should be considered.

- USF/UKF infantry scaling. Both Riflemen and Infantry Sections are reasonably balanced against Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers so long as they do not have two BARs/Brens. I'd suggest increasing the slot size of LMG-type weapons (BAR, Bren, M1919A6, LMG42, LMG34) to 2 and adjusting the DPS of the affected weapons slightly if there are any issues. I'm aware that a fully-upgraded Infantry Section just manages to hit Obersoldaten levels but Obers are a continuing economic drain while weapon upgrades are not.

Here are some stats for Riflemen, Infantry Sections, Grenadiers, and Panzergrenadiers from another thread:

Let's look at some stats!

Durability:

Squad	Models	Target Size	Vet 2 Bonus	Vet 3 Bonus
Riflemen	5	0.97	0.77x RA, 0.8x Cooldown	0.8x RA, 1.3x Accuracy
Grenadiers	4	0.91	1.4x Accuracy	0.77x RA, 0.8x Cooldown
Panzergrenadiers	4	0.8	0.71x RA, 0.75x Cooldown	1.4x Accuracy
Infantry Sections	4-5	0.8	0.76x RA	1.2x Accuracy, 0.8x Cooldown, 2 SLEs

DPS:

Weapon	Range 5	Range 10	Range 15	Range 20	Range 25	Range 30	Range 35
M1 Garand	5.84	4.33	3.40	2.80	2.34	1.97	1.67
BAR	13.97	10.45	7.99	6.97	6.03	5.17	4.37
Gren Kar98K	5.07	4.37	3.82	3.37	3.00	2.59	2.26
Gren LMG42	6.97	7.56	8.10	8.57	8.99	9.26	9.20
Panzergren MP44	15.35	12.81	10.10	7.69	5.46	3.38	1.44
Lee-Enfield	4.59	4.26	3.97	3.71	3.48	3.17	2.89
Bren	4.92	5.52	6.11	6.68	7.25	7.71	7.92
Scoped Lee-Enfield	5.71	5.19	4.74	4.33	3.97	3.57	3.22

First and most obvious: the BAR and Bren are not superweapons. The BAR is roughly equivalent to a Panzergrenadier MP44 with slightly better long-range and slightly worse short-range capabilities. The Bren is strictly worse than the Grenadier LMG42, especially when you consider that the DPS stats for UKF weapons include the cover bonus.

We can see that vet-3, single-BAR Riflemen are easily killed by Panzergrenadiers at short ranges while having the advantage in a long-range fight. With two BARs, Riflemen are still worse than Panzergrenadiers at short range but have somewhat closed the gap and have a greater advantage at long range.

The Infantry Section-Grenadier contest goes much as one would expect. IS with a single Bren have roughly equal long-range DPS to Grenadiers when in cover and will win due to their superior durability. The Grenadier squad will still lose at short-range but will fare slightly better. Fully upgraded Infantry Sections are an Obersoldaten-level anti-infantry threat although Obersoldaten scale further with veterancy (2 Brens = ~LMG34, 2 SLEs + LE with vet = ~3 Ober KAR98Ks).

Hope this helps.

Easy enough, just multiply the target size by every RA bonus:

Riflemen: 0.59725 RA, ~669 effective health

Grenadiers: 0.7007 RA, ~457 effective health

Panzergrenadiers: 0.568 RA, ~563 effective health

Infantry Sections: 0.608 RA, ~526-658 effective health

Grenadiers have a few issues but they won't be solved by adding weapon upgrades.

- Easily one-shot by explosives. Increasing squad spacing and/or making most (not Sturmtiger/B4/AVRE etc.) explosive weapons extremely unlikely to one-shot a squad (lower kill radius against infantry, increased damage radius to compensate) would improve the situation.

YES

FUCKING PLEASE

Remember that the 240mp squad has to/should retreat after 160 damage instead of the 240 damage of 280mp riflemen or 320 of 240mp conscripts.

Squad size has a great deal to do with field presence too. Grens have to be at full strength to recrew a team weapon without sacrificing the squad.

There's more than just, uh, wipeability at work with a squad size of 4.

rifles can't heal other squads

rofl

Vet 1 medkit ability?

this is when I know you're running out of arguments.

also, the ability to scale better late game through better veterancy, ability to get two weapon ups, AND 5 man >>>>> "cost effective" mg42 and "much utilitez" rifle nade and snare.

im on the side of adjustment for grens
BUT
grens can also build bunkers allowing them to lock down areas as well as create staging points if resources allow
thats another tally on gren utility that is lacking on the tommy/rifle matchup

sigle arming rifles would be a way to fix multiple problems actually (make BARs a bit better to compensate of course) and help differentiate them from rangers and paras as well as diversify builds with more RE sprinkled in (assuming they maintain double equip)

i think its an idea worth exploring

People realize that RA does not apply to explosive, fire, or ballistic damage right? Small arms v small arms fire only is neither common nor competitive in coh2. You can't just pretend it gives infantry mote effective health and still be accurate or meaningful.

They should change it so you can only pick up 1 LMG from weapon racks and tweak the performance of those LMG to make it fair.

Relic used to have it you can upgrade to LMG and G43 rifles and have them both at same time.

People realize that RA does not apply to explosive, fire, or ballistic damage right? Small arms v small arms fire only is neither common nor competitive in coh2. You can't just pretend it gives infantry mote effective health and still be accurate or meaningful.

Ye, its just that the prevalence of AOE weapons, especially in the lategame, relatively impacts Grens more severely than numerically stronger squads, on top of their limited resilience to small arms. Which is also why it is relatively more diffifcult to keep them alive than the mainline infantry of the other factions, and which by extension is also the main factor why Grens rarely trade. However, "traditionally", (ie. before Brits/vet3 Rifle buff), Grens would eventually scale, at least in longrange engagements, which they no longer do. Upgraded sections dominate them at long range, and BAR rifles just tend to run up and push them off the field, which in the lategame tends to be also easier owing to yellow cover everyhwere...

I second this. Allow grenadiers to be able to upgrade both if they are going to continue being the weakest mainline inf in the game

Grenadiers are not meant to carry Ostheer on their own, they are supposed to be part of a combined arms strategy.

Grenadiers are not meant to carry Ostheer on their own, they are supposed to be part of a combined arms strategy.

Riflemen and Infantry sections are supposed to work in the same way are they not? Why can vet 3 riflemen roam the field with impunity whilst grenadiers and conscripts get raped by anything that does damage?

Riflemen and Infantry sections are supposed to work in the same way are they not? Why can vet 3 riflemen roam the field with impunity whilst grenadiers and conscripts get raped by anything that does damage?

why OST has t0 mg-42 and USF has to tech to get mg???

why USF tanks are paper tanks???

why OKW and BRITS are the only faction having non-doc heavy???

why USF rifles has to tech to get nades and have to be vet 1 to have snare???

why RE have shit fighting capabilities while spios are fucking gold when flanking enemy squads???

why RE and spios have to choose a commnader to get flames while SU and OST have them by default, even without side tech??



you have to look at the whole picture....