Punish blobs with received accuracy penalty

it's hard to know what specifically was the issue without a replay or vid.

This +1000.

Pics or video are essential otherwise its just a crapshoot.

If they were suppressed then drive your tank over them. He will either retreat or take massive losses.
Don't just sit a vehicle in front of an AT blob and expect to come out in front.

I also agree that mgs could suppress somewhat quicker in regard to blobs. ( Not spread out units moving at the edges of the firing arc )

Ostwind was the thing that tried to drive over said guard blob, even while suppressed they still move away in time from crush and the AT rifles were... at rifles.

My main gripe is still how the units weren't punished more by the MG if they move headlong into it.

Either way, I raised a point, and I am not going to argue with anyone.

2 MG, an Ostwind (supposed anti infantry device) and a P4... (forgot to mention P4)

Please tell me what mortar to get as OKW )))))

are you stupid? OKW have the best mortar in the game.

Also, start using the flaktrack against blobs, It's doing wonders for me.

are you stupid? OKW have the best mortar in the game.

Also, start using the flaktrack against blobs, It's doing wonders for me.

Not stupid, but pretty sure LeIG is not the best...

OKW have any mortar units ? They just only have ISG !!!

What's a blob anyway?

What's a blob anyway?

Does this help you imagine what a blob looks like? xD

Does this help you imagine what a blob looks like? xD

Not really, but it proves you don't have a single clue either. Be glad and find me a definition with valid numbers instead of a trollpic.

Not really, but it proves you don't have a single clue either. Be glad and find me a definition with valid numbers instead of a trollpic.

No longer have replay, but would you consider 7 squads of guards, all standing so close that unit cards essentially overlap each other and having little space in between as "blob"?

I thought you were the troll, since I mentioned the numbers before.

No longer have replay, but would you consider 7 squads of guards, all standing so close that unit cards essentially overlap each other and having little space in between as "blob"?

I thought you were the troll, since I mentioned the numbers before.

What game mode and how low rank?
Because its not that hard to hardcounter blob with ineffective AT, also that is over 2200mp. 9 axis squads.
Where were they?

No longer have replay, but would you consider 7 squads of guards, all standing so close that unit cards essentially overlap each other and having little space in between as "blob"?

I thought you were the troll, since I mentioned the numbers before.

Not asking you how many squads were facing you, but the definition of a blob with numbers.

How much squads at minimum to consider it as a blob?
What minimum and maximum radius to say they are blobbing?
Are static squads considerate as a blob?
You know, something that can be translated as parameter in the game.

Let's assume 3 squads is a blob, since many people around here are considering it in the many threads we had about it.

If I have a HMG42+pio+Gren in the minimum radius not firing in the same direction, do I blob?
If I have a HMG42 in an house, a pio squad next to give vision and a mortar just behind, do I blob?
If I have 3 RM squads in green cover behind the cemetery wall in Semoisky, do I blob?
If I have 3 Volks squads passing the south left bridge at the same time on Semoisky, do I blob?
If I have a sniper, a pio to give vision and a gren next by to counter flank, do I blob?
If I have 3 RM squads flanking and closing the distance on an house with a HMG42, going into your blobbing definition radius, Do I blob?

You are right, defining a blob and turning it into useful code will be hard since relic.... yeah, 2 squads would get counted as blobbing...

Would increasing the MG's suppression radius work? Since the issue here are that MG seems to be unable to suppress more than 1-2 unit at a time even if they are clumped up rather close to each other from time to time.

If I have a HMG42+pio+Gren in the minimum radius not firing in the same direction, do I blob?
If I have a HMG42 in an house, a pio squad next to give vision and a mortar just behind, do I blob?
If I have 3 RM squads in green cover behind the cemetery wall in Semoisky, do I blob?
If I have 3 Volks squads passing the south left bridge at the same time on Semoisky, do I blob?
If I have a sniper, a pio to give vision and a gren next by to counter flank, do I blob?
If I have 3 RM squads flanking and closing the distance on an house with a HMG42, going into your blobbing definition radius, Do I blob?

Excellent examples.

We don't need to nail a blob down so tightly as to make it resemble a coded parameter; we just need enough clarity so we can talk about it meaningfully among ourselves. The whole claim that blobbing is rampant, and needs to be fixed rests on the presumption that we share a meaningful understanding of the term, and I'm not convinced we do.

You are right, defining a blob and turning it into useful code will be hard since relic.... yeah, 2 squads would get counted as blobbing...

Would increasing the MG's suppression radius work? Since the issue here are that MG seems to be unable to suppress more than 1-2 unit at a time even if they are clumped up rather close to each other from time to time.

The issue is your perception of blobbing. Why would you be able to stop 7 squads with 1? where are your 6 other squads?
Do you complain that a single pak will lose vs 4-5 shermans? even if they stay in front on it.

You have a HMG42, is coming 7 squads in front of it, one burst isn't enough to suppress them = hit the retreat button and come back stronger. Next time, you'll support your HMG with something else.

The action you described earlier, losing a ostwind to a blob of 7 guards is symptomatic of a lack of discernment in game. Do you see a sherman going into 7 squads of SP+shreck leaving the fight alive? Or the same ostwind into 7 squads of RM+Zooks winning the fight?
Some of the good answers are to kite them, to bait them into heavier fire. Spread your troop etc...

You did something that didn't work, you lost, take the lesson as experience. You also probably did something wrong before that, letting someone getting 7 squads of guards roaming in the battlefield isn't normal.

My point did not change.

Charging 2 MG from the front with a dense blob should be punished by suppression/ pin. Using flanking, or spreading forces out should be encouraged, not have them as dense as possible, especially with late game LMG "blobs" which can sniper gunners out even while MG is in green cover.

They pushed back the Ostwind while suppressed as well.

There were 2 MG, an Ostwind, and a P4. The "blob" was suppressed. Neither the P-4 nor the ostwind caused sufficient casualties before Ostwind was pushed back by AT rifle guards (which were suppressed).

PS: Ostwind was not lost, but also embarrassingly ineffective against something it should counter, infantry.

My point did not change.

Charging 2 MG from the front with a dense blob should be punished by suppression/ pin. Using flanking, or spreading forces out should be encouraged, not have them as dense as possible, especially with late game LMG "blobs" which can sniper gunners out even while MG is in green cover.

They pushed back the Ostwind while suppressed as well.

There were 2 MG, an Ostwind, and a P4. The "blob" was suppressed. Neither the P-4 nor the ostwind caused sufficient casualties before Ostwind was pushed back by AT rifle guards (which were suppressed).

PS: Ostwind was not lost, but also embarrassingly ineffective against something it should counter, infantry.

Post the replay cuz its hardly difficult to believe.

Post the replay cuz its hardly difficult to believe.

I don't have replay. Did not save it, only wanted to bring it up as a discussion topic.

I have had shitty luck thus far, and some "obvious" wins turned into total wtf moments...... (ass gren losing to IS point blank, etc)

The whole claim that blobbing is rampant, and needs to be fixed rests on the presumption that we share a meaningful understanding of the term, and I'm not convinced we do.

well i will try to give you a strict definition of what most other people seem to graps intuitively:
a blob is 3 or more units that were issued the same move commands (or act like that)

The issue is your perception of blobbing. Why would you be able to stop 7 squads with 2?

because MGs are the counter to a high concentration of infantry within their arc. if 2 of them are not able to stop a blob, they are not effective enough. simple. and we have seen time and time that they are not good enough. be it sprice RE blobs (yes, he does blob them) or the PG blob at the early stages, or the volks blob, or the conscript+ptrs blob. and i know im not the only one with this opinion.

People think of MG as if they were bunkers which can guard a flank, when in reality they act more like paks. They are force multipliers, so if you don't have anything to support them, they will get overrun by superior numbers. Think about suppression as setting the enemy DPS to 20/25%. If the enemy has 4 units for your only single MG, it's probable that it would lose head on, specially if you don't sight for it or the enemy has LMGs.

There's also hidden mechanics regarding how suppression is applied (like targeting cover or vehicles to suppress units through AoE), how unit count makes a difference* (6 man squad are suppressed faster than 4 man squads) and how big is the buff/debuff when you are suppressed and pinned (lower further suppression for few seconds after suppress)



IMO: which doesn't matter as it would take huge loads of work and tweaks.
-nerf double LMG and balance performance accordingly to 1, make LMGs slightly worst at closer range, bar worst at longer range. Replace 1919 from CalliOP commander (at least some reason to try Infantry and Paras).

-Either replace or just tweak to make the increased values from vet 3/4/5 on several units to only apply in cover. For example: if we establish that 29% RA and 40% accuracy are the top values, anything besides that only applies when units are behind cover. Penals/PF would get their "extra" 20% accuracy only when in cover, same for Rifles with their "extra" 14% RA.
PD: i'll add passive suppression on certain unit to be only useable when in cover and still (similar but not equal to defensive stance).

-Unfortunately it seems as if the new factions were designed around blobbing. FRP on anything besides 1v1 are cancer. It would be "fair" to give cancer to EFA. It would be better to just nerf (somehow) FRP across the board.
For example: make FRP have a 1-3min cooldown. You wouldn't want to consume the cooldown on a single unit and you'll need to "micro" the retreat point by toggling it off and on.

From an old Cruzz post
Show Spoiler

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Regarding your example:
-14 PTRS shooting only once at said Ostwind.
-85avg pen vs 110/55 armor with 40dmg per shot.
-Accuracy debuff doesn't matter cause it won't miss. Reload doesn't matter cause they probably won't be able to land more than 1/2 shots. Cooldown will realistically make it so they only shoot 1/2 salvos and is the only relevant stat (against vehicles). This depends on whether they could land a shot before been suppressed or not.
-Taking the best case scenario of only 1 volley from the 7 squads, you will receive on avg 433 dmg (normalized it means 11/14 pen shots = 440dmg). Been that the HP pool of the Ostwind is 640HP, you probably back out after it's first volley.

It's funny since zook/schrecks would not necessarily be better on a simil situation as it would leave it to RNG if they are able to hit or not with the debuff.

What u should have done is push with the PIV first, the Ostwind follows and crush with BOTH of them. A non vet 2 PIV has a 180 armor making it on avg to receive a bit more than half of the dmg the Ostwind received. It's probable that you stayed still trying to shoot at them. If you went for the crush with both it's even possible that the blob wouldn't had time to aim at your tanks as you are pushing them out or just straight crushing them.