Gridkeys + WASD or not?

Who needs WASD when you have this?
Open up new flavours of T-34 ram!

Needs Arrow buttons + minimap option.

And space for the occasional yelling about

My GridKeys + WSAD movement with mouse binds on Map and Attack Point

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Those smiley are S for some reason

WASD is so garbage. Learn to use hotkeys and the minimap properly if you actually want to improve your mechanics. Constantly watching the minimap is an essential habit for any RTS player, and it's even more important to keep your mouse free in CoH2 than it was in CoH1 because grenades are more plentiful and more difficult to dodge. Not to mention halt and attack-move commands can be used much more effectively when they're only a key press away.

There's really zero reason why a player who is serious about improving mechanically would choose to use WASD controls in an RTS; it is objectively less flexible and precise. People do it because it's how they learned and it's comfortable to them, not because it's a superior method of control.

Personally I use the gridkeys, mouse hotkeys (with the manufacturer mouse software) and keyboard hotkeys (with AutoHotkey). Depending of the situation, I use "arrow key" (via ZQSD), mini map or tactical map.

Gridkeys is that (for azerty keyboard) :



Mouse hotkeys (only one click needed to do the action) :

• Attack Move ;
  
• Reinforce ;
  
• Retreat ;
  
• Attack Here Signal ;
  
• Reverse Drive ;
  
• Tactical map ;
  

Keyboard hotkeys :

Only when space bar is down :

• Z -> Arrow Up
  
• S -> Arrow Down
  
• Q -> Arrow Left
  
• D -> Arrow Right
  

and Caps Lock -> Space

minimap scrolling, best way to do anything IMHO

i have adjusted my Keyboard with the driver that came by. I Use WASD to move camera, and also switched the hotkeys.

But non the less, like i always said, we need adjustable hotkeys by relic. I think forcing someone into those hotkeys which a poorly placed is not the solution to improve the players ability.

WASD is so garbage. Learn to use hotkeys and the minimap properly if you actually want to improve your mechanics. Constantly watching the minimap is an essential habit for any RTS player, and it's even more important to keep your mouse free in CoH2 than it was in CoH1 because grenades are more plentiful and more difficult to dodge. Not to mention halt and attack-move commands can be used much more effectively when they're only a key press away.

There's really zero reason why a player who is serious about improving mechanically would choose to use WASD controls in an RTS; it is objectively less flexible and precise. People do it because it's how they learned and it's comfortable to them, not because it's a superior method of control.

Unless we talk about 3v3 maps (which some of them are also in the 2v2 rotation) most maps are small enough that you don't need too much scrolling or minimap movement (specially compared to other RTS games).
I do agree scrolling through the map is ineffective (you should use control groups) but what would you do if you have to pan out a unit which is slightly out of your FoV or you have to chase an enemy unit? Moving with the mouse removes control of the unit (either through moving to the boarders or using the default middle mouse button). I think WASD is effective for microing a combat, not the "macro/multitasking" aspect.

Since the games doesn't have the micro sink of managing economy, the QTBZ grid on qwerty keyboards is enough to control all the functions in this game. While i don't make use of the whole 0-9 numbers, you can assign modifiers and have them all at the reach of your left hand so you don't have to move it from position.

So what you're saying is using WASD has the following advantages over using traditional minimap movement:

- Easier to make minor adjustments to the position of the camera.

That's it. That's its one advantage. And it's an extremely minor advantage when you consider that improving your minimap precision means minor adjustments should be required less frequently, and that even when necessary minor adjustments with the mouse are relatively low-impact compared to the vast array of advantages minimap control gives you over WASD control already, and that the scenario you describe (chasing an enemy unit) is a complete wash regardless of control style because you still need your mouse to follow the unit in order to issue move orders to follow, so having that same mouse also pan the camera costs you nothing.

Compare the above list of advantages with the advantages minimap control has over WASD:

- A full hand free for ability and building hotkeys, which are more important in CoH2 than in CoH1 because units have more individual abilities than they did in CoH1.
- A full hand free for control groups. Say you have 6 control groups and you want to issue commands to all 6 as quickly as possible. With WASD control, this means completely sacrificing map movement while your hand is busy selecting your control groups.
- A more intense focus on the minimap, which is the absolute most important element of the user interface in an RTS.
- Quicker and more efficient access to unit control shortcuts such as attack-move and halt. Tapping a key is a whole lot quicker than moving your mouse and clicking a button when you want to quickly halt a unit or issue multiple attack-move orders to multiple control groups of units in quick succession.
- Allows your mouse to always be as close to your units as possible, which means you're going to have improved reaction time for when you need to micro squads, reverse vehicles, dodge grenades...the list goes on and on. What do you do when your mouse is doing something you could be using a keyboard shortcut for and your opponent throws a grenade? You're going to be a little less prepared than you would have been otherwise. These little moments add up over the course of a game.

Like I said, people will use what they want to use, and it's completely up to them. And ya know what? If you just fuck around and you play with friends and you aren't serious about being a great player and practicing a lot and all that crap, do whatever the hell you want. The vast majority of people who play this game are never going to take it seriously enough to care about mechanics like this. But if you're grinding out 1v1s and analyzing your replays and seriously trying to improve as a player, there's really no reason why you would use WASD control. It may be slightly more difficult to master minimap control and require slightly better mouse precision, but when done correctly it is objectively the quickest, most efficient way to control camera movement in an RTS. And when combined with other mechanics best practices, like minimizing box size and creating boxes in such a way that your mouse at the end of the box is where you plan on issuing your command, it really makes a night-and-day difference in the speed and level of control you have over your units.

But don't just take my word for it. There are a lot of very good instructional videos out there of professional RTS players explaining how they get the most out of their time and their actions over the course of a game, and most of their tips and lessons apply equally as well to Company of Heroes. If you're trying to be the best player you can be, why wouldn't you try to be as efficient as possible mechanically? It's the one aspect of your gameplay over which you have complete control. If one method of control gives you even slight benefits over another, there is no reason not to use it.

I Use grid and bound Camera Scroll onto my mouse thumb key instead of the Middle Mouse button and I drag the screen.

snip

How is your hand not free on using the whole set of hotkeys, if all the buttons are at the access of your left hand.

You are using examples were WASD still applies. WASD is not to replace minimap/tactmap/control group camera control, it's about replacing MOUSE SCROLLING through either using sidescrolling or using the middle mouse button.

Because you're losing four prime key locations and really not gaining anything significant for it. Improving your mouse precision drastically reduces the number of minor camera adjustments you need to make anyways, and most other adjustments are made because you need to issue commands in the direction of the adjustment anyways, so you would have your mouse in that section of the screen no matter which control method you choose.

Not to mention you lose all control groups and hotkeys whenever you have to adjust the camera because suddenly your left hand is completely occupied with map movement.

There's just no scenario where WASD scrolling would give you a noticeable advantage over traditional RTS control. A mechanically competent player is going to be minimizing minor camera adjustments already and would be far better off with four additional hotkeys than having those keys fulfill an extremely narrow and redundant function.

Again, go see what professional RTS players have to say on the subject. There's a reason not a single one of them use WASD or equivalent keyboard controls for minor camera adjustments. CoH is a unique franchise in the RTS space because mechanics are less vital to success relative to other games in the genre, but that doesn't mean you should settle for an objectively inferior technique just because you could possibly get away with it. Competition is all about giving yourself every possible advantage. If one control scheme gives you even a slight edge over another, and you're trying to be a competitive player, it would be foolish not to learn and practice it.

Classic hotkeys till the end baby

I'd highly recommend remapping the Num0 key to Mouse button 4 using X-mouse for quick tactical mapping.

There's just no scenario where WASD scrolling would give you a noticeable advantage over traditional RTS control. A mechanically competent player is going to be minimizing minor camera adjustments already and would be far better off with four additional hotkeys than having those keys fulfill an extremely narrow and redundant function.

Agreed. Moving the camera with WSAD is a total waste of both Classic and GridKey hand positioning.

It would mean your hand is in a position that would need to move abnormally to reach the very hotkeys that speed up your gameplay.

since 2013 i use WASD + autohotkey and i REASSIGNED EVERY SINGLE HOTKEY FOR EVERY SINGLE FACTION in 5 different scripts. + tactical map.

i think i lost not few games because the left side of my keyboard is completeley assigned. that's why i push the wrong buttons from time to time or am too slow.

now io feel i'm too used to it to change it

also i don't like screen scrolling with mouse and clicking on minimap because i find scrolling around all the time with the right hand and switching from middle of screen to minimap somewhat exhausting.


what do you think?




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@DonnieChan Use code tag if you want to put AutoHotkey script.

Agreed. Moving the camera with WSAD is a total waste of both Classic and GridKey hand positioning.

It would mean your hand is in a position that would need to move abnormally to reach the very hotkeys that speed up your gameplay.

If WASD always match to Up Down Left Right arrow keys, yes, your hand will need to move abnormally but if you use a "shift key" to activate WASD as Up Down Left Right arrow keys just when its key is down your hand position will be normal.

I also agreed to the fact that moving camera with mini map is mostly faster than WASD. I use WASD because it's easier to use and require less mouse gesture.

Personally I use classic with ctrl hotkeys assigned individually on all non-support weapon squads for double tap camera changes, use the minimap occasionally for camera changes, and use mmb for small camera changes.
I feel like whatever style gets the job done is ok though. I see a lot of streamers use the tac map and never use control groups. That seems unnatural to me but they obviously perform just fine so I ain't hating.

...

IDEALLY yes. But all the pro RTS players are playing on games which ACTUALLY requires a certain skill APM barrier in order to be effective. Someone with sub 50 APM probably couldn't escape from gold/platinum league on SC2. Here he can easily make it to top50 with proper decision making.

There's a matter of min max as well. A pro who plays for money will probably go for every single small edge he can get, either through mechanics or equipment (hardware). Even if it's something as small as 0.1%. For us, the rest of the "peasants", that 0.1% or 1% edge might not be worth the effort, as focusing on improving on some other area might prove to be more effective.

"Competition is all about giving yourself every possible advantage. If one control scheme gives you even a slight edge over another, and you're trying to be a competitive player, it would be foolish not to learn and practice it."

It would be foolish to not try it, but not to not learn it. Different players, different styles. Limitations exists as well. People like to copy what PROs do, but they should eventually learn that not everything that "PROs" do work at all skill levels.

For example: what's your opinion on tactical map vs minimap ?

It's not a "different styles" thing though, because one approach is objectively better than the other. If it was a "different styles" thing you'd have some professional RTS players using WASD, yet none do. In a hypothetical fairy world where you could compare two players who are otherwise identical with one using WASD and the other using traditional RTS control, the traditional control player would have faster reaction time and better mechanical control over his units. It might take a little more time to reach proficiency for the traditional control player than the WASD player, but once he gets there he is going to have an advantage in every single game going forward.

Throughout this whole conversation I've said repeatedly that if you don't care about trying to compete with the very best I couldn't care less how you move around the map. Use whatever method you enjoy the most and don't change because someone says your method is inferior. But if you're trying to compete in tournaments or just trying to be the best possible player you can be, it doesn't matter if you're competing for money or just competing on the CoH ladder. I played college baseball, and I knew I wasn't good enough to go pro, but that never stopped me from always trying to find an edge. Why would you voluntarily choose to play in a way that is objectively inferior? If the answer is "I'm more comfortable like this" or "It would take too long to learn", well, I don't really see you improving very much, and I doubt you're the kind of player I'm talking about anyways. The best player in the world is going to recognize that even for him, comfortable doesn't necessarily mean most effective, because that's the sort of mentality that drives constant improvement and innovation.

CoH as a franchise has a lower APM requirement than many other RTS games, this is true. But that doesn't mean lessons from those games cannot be applied with similar effectiveness to Company of Heroes. Micro efficiency is micro efficiency regardless of the game you're playing, and in CoH2 it's especially important because micro is really the only way to differentiate yourself from others. Half a second can be the difference between dodging a grenade and losing half a squad, between reversing away from an AT gun in time and losing a tank, between losing only one squad to artillery and losing three. These little interactions happen countless times every single game, and they're going to affect your ladder win rate, your tournament advancement rate, and ultimately your success against players who you cannot simply out-think and out-maneuver. Being a consistently good RTS player is all about giving yourself the statistically best possible chance of winning any given game. Improving your mechanics improves your baseline chance of winning every single game. Why wouldn't you want that?

There's a reason a player like HuK could walk into CoH1 and make it to a tournament semifinal with less than 6 months of experience. When you have impeccable RTS mechanics, you're going to be pretty damn good at all RTS games, not just those that emphasize mechanics more than others. Watch other top CoH1 and CoH2 players and pay attention to just how many silly little unforced errors they make because they're distracted elsewhere or overwhelmed with necessary actions, especially late in games. These are tournament winners and ladder leaders, and they all fuck up a ton because they're too slow and too inefficient. Imagine a player with that knowledge and the speed and efficiency to completely eliminate or reduce to a bare minimum those unforced errors. Imagine how incredibly difficult they would be to beat.

The myth that CoH players don't benefit from playing faster and playing with higher APM is just that, a myth. You can't find someone who plays at 50APM and who isn't overwhelmed lategame in Company of Heroes, it doesn't matter their skill level. Watch a tournament finals and count the number of times grenades don't get dodged, or manpower gets floated unnecessarily, or vehicles take extra AT gun hits, or mines don't go down the second they should. Look for these little errors and you'll be amazed at how often they occur. You can't improve on these problems with game knowledge or strategic skill; you need to improve your mechanics, improve your efficiency, improve your raw speed. In order to do that you need to start with a fundamentally sound foundation, not a gimmick that no serious professional RTS player would touch with a 100 foot poll.