Ostheer infantry - old experience, new profits

Since people think (again), that Im "biased", I will try to write about problem of Ost, which I see as important and give my suggestion how to deal with it:

Ostheer infantry. Unlike soviet infantry, which strongest side is survivability, which is compensated with low damage, ostheers always had decent damage dealing stats in exchange to low survivability of squads and high prices of them.

That's my own ideas, why Ostheer infantry became so problematic for last period:

It worked pretty good for long time, and from my point of view - problems started with UKF. UKF infantry combines strong survivability (low recived accuracy stat by default + 5th men in squads) and strong firepower (good accuracy + additional weapons). I don't really remember, that I would have problems with dealing with soviet infantry by ostheer, or US (which is more powerful, but that's design feature, everything is right). So, since UKF came - ostheer infantry started to be really underpowered. Not enough survivability by default and not enough firepower for to deal with new deadly infantry. + Here came new Penals, which became better in DD and saved their survivability - also problem for Ostheer infantry.

So, something should be done about them. Pretty popular became idea, to make 5th grenadeer, but I don't think, that it is good one. Instead, it would be more interesting and, I suppouse, more effective to rework infantry system of Ost fully, for to make it more "adapted" to new factions, units and meta in general.

And for that could be used... CoH 1 infantry system of Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht has a lot of common with Ostheer (just like USF and USSR), so, infantry system could be reworked in that way.

If I remember right, there were 3 (4) combat reliable infantry units: Volksgrenadeers (T1), Grenadeers (T2), Sturm squads (doctrinal) and Crossholders (T4). All of them were designed nice, each of them performed well at thier stages. Volks would be use in early, for rush and capture, but not for late, since they had low combat stats (even with MP40s), Grenadeers were powerful core, with nice firepower, weapon versality and good survivability (even with 4 men squad, they had a lot HP), and Croosholders - horror of late game, HMGs and snipers. Designed and performed just as it should be.

Now, how can we make it in CoH 2, my example:

T1 - Instead of grenadeers we put assgrens. Assgrens saving their super-grenade barrage, getting faust (like Volks from vCoH). They would be nice unit for early game. Sprint would help with map control, bigger squad would help with survivability and because of their low firepower - they would be used in late only like cheap meatshiels. Price - 230-250 MP. Because you know... 5 men.

Optional: For T1 could be used Osttrupens, but... I think Assgrens would be better for that. Would add some diversity in Ostheer stock infantry pool and make their early game more active and agressive.

T2 - Instead of PzGrenadeers we put grenadeers from T1. Giving to them 2 weapon slots, and 2 weapon upgrades - Schreck and MG-42. You will be able to get 2 Schrecks, 2 MG-42s or both but 1 of each. Like in vCoH. It should be same 4 men squad, but I think with lesser RA stat, maybe more HP for each model, for to make it decent core infantry for mid-late stages. Price - 260-280 MP.

T4 - Since Relic won't make new models for units, here can be used doctrinal EliteSturms or same PanzerGrens. They (elites) perform very well for late infantry, only would be good again - decrease a bit RA and maybe increase model HP. Same can be done with PzGrens, but they will also need to increase their damage dealing stats, like accuracy. I think, that Eltiesturms would be more reasonable to use here. They will be equiped with STGs at start, will have upgrade for IR-scoped STGs (they just making massacres with them) for 60 or 90 ammo. Price - 390-450 MP.

Slot of Elitesturms and Assgrens in doctrines may be changed with old PzGrens. For to make them "useful" and attractive - they will instantly when called have 2 PzSchrecks, will have fausts, and will be able to lay AT-mines. And rename them to "(Elite) PanzerJagers". Sounds pretty good for me. And for not to make them total copy of AT-partisans, they won't be able to be called out from buildings. Price - 340-360 MP, CP 3 (+-1).

What do you think about it? Im not fully sure about all those changes, but in general - looks fine for me and all of those would make Ostheer infantry great again (specially in late).

I don't think Ostheer needs a rework design as OKW cancershrek spam. 4 man squads need some tuning in general and don't get one shotted by indirect fire, alas in general, all squads need better spacing. I like ostheer and how you rely on combined arms, plus against brits you have the power of zerglings (cough) ostruppen or sniper for your early game. Perhaps some better vet buffs and other ability rather than medkit and I think they will be fine. I like how grens support your core army. Just my 50 cents.

Question would the assault grenadiers have a combat package and start with rifles? I don't think it would end well if Ostheer can only start with mp40 infantry, now we may as well give pioneers rifles to keep some synergy with thier starting infantry, its too risky all faction's have access to rifled infantry so you can stem bleed depending on how well you play.

The issue isn't that they need some idiotic overhaul, it doesn't help with their main issue of RNG wipes. All they need is squad spacing improvements and the double LMG power creep to be fixed.

The issue isn't that they need some idiotic overhaul, it doesn't help with their main issue of RNG wipes. All they need is squad spacing improvements and the double LMG power creep to be fixed.

RNG wipes are part of game mechanic. Sometimes it happens - it's fine.

My idea was about adapting OST to new factions and make their infantry play more effective in late, not to prvent RNG wipes, which is not problem at all.

You don't need to make an overhaul of OH teching and units. Adjusting small aspects (#MakeVet1forEFAGreatAgain) without completely changing the overall performance is the way IMO.

I take for granted that the current firepower level is here to stay (LMG MLG meta) so i do think that a 15-20min BP3 upgrade for a 5th man isn't a wack idea (for SU it would be a faster/cheaper to reinforce Cons at T4 although they are mostly fine atm since Penals rework).

If we could had small frequently patches, i'll rather first test a better spacing on 4man squads first before any buffs. Problem is if any patch is meant to be implemented, it's gonna be with several changes on it.

RNG wipes are part of game mechanic. Sometimes it happens - it's fine.

Slightly unrelated, but I see the same problem with you and @Katitof often making one specific point (and I'm sure there are many Axis fanboi who argue similarly).

The implication is that something that exists is justified by its existence. However, RNG wipes might not be good game design, and here is where I think you two might disagree and claim there is no such thing as objective principle of game design--however, nor do I think so. But they are not subjective either. They are normative, as in a norm of what constitutes good and bad design is universal, but they may be subverted in niche cases and still create a successful and fun game. But the principles of good design should generally be followed anyways when possible.
To the degree that RNG wipes are random, they frustrate players undue opponent's skill and should be equalized wherever possible. Faction flavor is a weak obstacle in the face of this mandate.
Edit: that is not to say we can't give the appearance of flavor through a pseudo-RNG system. We don't need 5 man gren squads, as long as they're effectively more like 5-6 mans in terms of survivability.

The alternative to normative or objective game design is subjectivity. In addition to justifying things on flawed bases (like their mere existence or precedent or flavor), it usually leads to a sort of developer worship because there is no authority to turn to other than they (or pride, if one turns to oneself as the authority)--and I think that's the problem you guys have in mentality. Simply because Sakurai-san put tripping in Brawl doesn't mean it's not doo-doo game design and shouldn't be removed. It is doo-doo, and should be removed, which is why Brawl+ and Project M are superior to Brawl.

What needs to happen is, we gotta quit this nonstop buffing allied units. Allies have gotten buffs after buffs and Osteer has gotten jack.