SU-85; The Thread

WoW that's what I was gonna write,you've got potential

oh look its friedchickens new spam account after he was banned awwwwwwwwww ....

Went yesterday to baserape,had 3 Panzer 4's,which one was vet 2 and the others where vet 1...Destroyed 2 SU-85's,1 T34,2 T34-85's and my only casualty was the vet 2 Panzer,which it was no biggie because the other two were promoted,so yeah if you are smarter than a worm,which I doubt you are,Panzer 4 can win you the game,so please stop your schnitzel eater nazi mouth from bitching...

ahhhh marx must be happy that in the 21st century the legacy of communism and faggotry is alive on the internet thanks to the joker.

The really sad thing about the game is that the Panther is utterly useless versus more than 1 SU-85. Not worth the cost at all, not good versus infantry either and 165 fuel is ridiculous for a vehicle that can only effectively counter T-34s. [...]

So Panthers are useless as well? Is there any decent tank on German side?
Common people be serious...

[...]The really annoying thing that wants me to bash my forehead on the computer screen is that 2 SU-85 (one vet2, one unvetted) will beat a full health Elefant with the mark target ability. Yes, that just happened. Stay at far (66m) range and the 88mm won´t hit anything smaller than the size of the Kremlin.

Even Elephant is rubbish? I just don't know what to say...

Even Elephant is rubbish? I just don't know what to say...

well he didnt exactly say the elefant is rubbish and the accuracy bit is obviously not meant to be taken literally. what happened to him is partly bad use of an elefant and bad luck, but it doesnt change the fact the su85 is really really powerful for its cost. but i dont think it needs any changes except maybe its speed (since the last change isnt really much of a nerf if the soviet can remember to run off forward sight). i was curious so heres some numbers.

an su85 shooting an elefant at max range has a 65% chance to hit. it fires every 4.25 seconds and penetrates 42.5% of the time. su85 deals 160 damage, 240 with mark target, and 427 damage with mark target AND vet 2. thats crazy, even if it doesnt penetrate often.

elefant shooting an su85 at 66m has a 74% chance to hit. it fires every 8.8 seconds and penetrates 94% of the time. elefant deals 320 damage.

honestly, that elefant would put up a fight, but if they get some lucky penetrating shots it didnt stand much of a chance. assuming lucky shots, those su85s can deal 1334 damage before elefant can even reload after the first shot. elefant shouldnt have been alone in that fight to begin with though.

Common Wooof if they nerf the speed of SU-85 no skill will be required to sucesfuly flank one. It's still a mobile AT gun after all.

Common Wooof if they nerf the speed of SU-85 no skill will be required to sucesfuly flank one. It's still a mobile AT gun after all.

everyones complained about the su85s speed for a long time now. the last patch did nothing to fix that. the only time the change to focus sight makes any difference is if an su85 is trying to chase a tank down at long range with it on. for reversing away, it just turns off sight and its as fast as ever. pqumsieh even said in his stream theyre just trying out focus sight change, if its not enough theyll do more. well just have to see what they do next patch

SU85 is still about 0.2-0.4 too fast.

Its rotation is also just a tad too fast, considerinf the hard coded problems in pathing for a successful circle strafe.

SU85 shouldnt survive a successful Tank flank, without support.

In comparison of speed relations, the Stug moves like a snail vs T34 speed.

Common Wooof if they nerf the speed of SU-85 no skill will be required to sucesfuly flank one. It's still a mobile AT gun after all.

Its just a little too mobile for the killing power, range and surviveability it provides. Its frontal armor is very high for what it costs (180 armor vs 160 for p4/stug). Meanwhile it also has the same penetration as an elefant or a panther(su85, elefant and panther all have 170 pen). It also outranges everything exept an elefant. A small acceleration nerf is also warranted.

I think the stug should stand up a little better to it. Maybe they should make the stug's target weak point a longer range say 65 range. Then If you have 2 stugs, one at vet1, you can target weak point with the one and then move in closer with both to kill the 85.

I do agree it's a powerful vehicle but it can be rendered useless in no time. It's all about the approach.
Don't forget that when German tanks get Vet1 you can even attack up front and still be able to flank one.

Vet abilities are not a basis for balancing vanilla stats.
Its the other way around.
Vet needs to be balanced according to vanilla stats.

Arguing that Ost V1 negates SU85s native speed, is not valid, because you are applying additional requirements in an imbalanced situation

If you want to compare an Ost V1 vehicle, you need to compare it to a Sov V1 vehicle, not a V0.

Yeah, and even if you use blitzkrieg, you won't "render the su85 useless in no time" lol. If he is half decent he will reverse away and at-nade or button your p4.

Countering an su85 with a p4 requires one or more of the following

• su85 microes like shit and/or over extends horribly

• p4 player has perfect micro and no pathing issues

• su85 is not backed up by conscripts and guards

Of course points one and three will not happen if the russian player is above average skill.

Using p4 to counter su85 is just too risky at higher levels, and you are better off avoiding the su85 and waiting for an elefant or are stuck with using schreks or paks, which the su85 is actually not too bad against considering sniping the at-gun and/or pgren squad members. There just isnt a hard counter to it until you can field an elefant.

ahhhh marx must be happy that in the 21st century the legacy of communism and faggotry is alive on the internet thanks to the joker.

Be happy Nazi kid,Marx,not marx like a retarded kid who had to repeat first grade,was German,so the faggotry title remains in your possesion,papa Adolf would be so proud of you,pidaryuga...

Vet abilities are not a basis for balancing vanilla stats.
Its the other way around.
Vet needs to be balanced according to vanilla stats.

Arguing that Ost V1 negates SU85s native speed, is not valid, because you are applying additional requirements in an imbalanced situation

If you want to compare an Ost V1 vehicle, you need to compare it to a Sov V1 vehicle, not a V0.

It needs to be taken into consideration though or it will create more imbalances. The ability is there. If you will play carefully enough you will get it.
Imagine if they would nerf SU-85 so there is no problem, or very little problem to flank it. Flanked SU is a dead SU, no need to argue about that. Now PzIV will flank SU-85 with ease, kill it, get Vet1 in the process and start to be invincible. SU-85 will hit the field much later than PzIV, don't forget that. Soviet have to deal with MG42 first to be able to catch up.
Besides Panther will win against SU-85 1 on 1. If you can't handle SU's with PzIV, go for Panthers. The best tanks in the game. You will not be that late.
Of course I talk about 2v2 here as in 1v1 there is no excuse for you to not to dominate with PzIV.

Panthers and PzIV get engine damaged all the way -> free kill for Su85.
You don't have a commander with Smoke ability? ->buttoned -> dead
You faust a Su85 to flank it afterwards? -> like it gives a shit about your faust

Panthers and PzIV get engine damaged all the way -> free kill for Su85.
You don't have a commander with Smoke ability? ->buttoned -> dead
You faust a Su85 to flank it afterwards? -> like it gives a shit about your faust

It works both ways. Panzerfaust will damage engine of SU-85 making it vulnerable. PG can just walk in and shoot it to death. Guards have to be in close range for the button to work correctly making them easy targets for your supporting infantry as YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SUPPORT YOUR TANKS WITH INFANTRY.

@Oz: You make a good point about Panther as a seriously "tank" tank, and it being able to threaten SU85s, even on direct frontal assaults. I am sure we both agree, however, that pragmatically at best all it can do is force the SU85 to reverse, at which point the Oanther has to disengage unless the SU has a critical pathing failure.

Notably adding to that, we all know how hard and micro intensive is to pull off a sucxessful circle strafe. You cant look anywhere else for the duration of that engagement. If pathing fails, the SU85 will just rotate, present frontal to a Ost tank that is invaeiably rear armor facing, due to its attempt to circle, and asspunch it.

Ive reconsidered, and am dropping my request for speed reduction, and leaving only the rotation reduction request.

If a SU85 has a line for a direct reverse, it should be welcome to it. That is a factor of good positioning and ok in my book.

Pathing is so problematic in this game that we seriously have to make some concessions to allow for the systems fallabilities.

The rotation speed, however, not so much. I dont want to see SU85s rotating on the spot, presenting perpetual frontal, while waiting for Ost tank vehicle pathing to fuck up on a pebble.

I use T34 vs Stug speeds and rotations as a guideline.
However, T34s speed is necessary for its low armor and dmg.
Stug, I am confident will be buffed eventually, in other ways. Probably range, sight or speed. Something lateral.
And its not the topic of this discussion. I just mean Stugs very low speed and relatively low reach is still an issue for Ost t3.

But on the point of rotation, a flanked SU85 should always reverse, never rotate.
To this end, I want its rotation nerfed just a tad. It doesnt take much to make the necessary difference.

@OZtheWiZARD
I know. But Panzerfaust now only works from the side/rear of SU85 mostly, making it harder then before. You know it's in nature of SU85 to face the enemy frontal, and due to it's fast backwardsspeed it's not trivial to get a faust work.

Supporting tanks with infantry, sure thing, but that will never stop conscripts from AT nading (that will always engine damage P4).

Be happy Nazi kid,Marx,not marx like a retarded kid who had to repeat first grade,was German,so the faggotry title remains in your possesion,papa Adolf would be so proud of you,pidaryuga...

this pile of dung will be banned soon hopefully ...

SU-85 will hit the field much later than PzIV, don't forget that.

umm nope, they hit at the same time.

Soviet have to deal with MG42 first to be able to catch up.

You are bringing in another op unit to justify op-ness. Terrible balancing argument.

Besides Panther will win against SU-85 1 on 1 ..... You will not be that late.

Well, it costs 320 fuel to field your first panther If you include teching costs. It will be very, very late in comparison and panthers can still lose to su85 that is reversed away and/or supported.

Of course I talk about 2v2 here as in 1v1 there is no excuse for you to not to dominate with PzIV.

Hmm ok well FYI: balance revolves mainly around 1v1. 2v2 is not as high a priority in balancing as 1v1. "No excuse not to dominate with p4 in 1v1?(against su85 !??)" What level players are you playing against exactly?

this pile of dung will be banned soon hopefully ...

You would like that,wouldn't you?
Don't blame me because you had to repeat first grade kid,LoL