SU-85; The Thread

I think the PIV is just right, as is. The T-34 needs a slight boost, and the Panther needs to become a more powerful Tank Killer, now that the SU-85 takes that crown.

The Brummbar is outside of this thread's topic, but it is the most underused unit in the entire game. There's more use out of an M3 halftrack with the AA upgrade, than getting the Brummbar. Its also qualified as a heavy tank, that cannot heavy crush things (seriously, lol, wtf )

Off topic:
-T34 needs a nerf not a buff. Of everyone who says otherwise, a flaw in their reasoning: comparison of the T34 to P4 when they are not meant to be 'equals'. T34 has RAM and can instantly disable any tank in the game. For free. It also kills infantry much faster than the P4 and almost as fast as the Ostwind. The P4 this is not, it's better in many respects, especially for its cost. Talk of buffing the T34 needs to end, now.

-Early beta Brummbar was potent against infantry to a worthwhile degree, but that changed. And now I'll never build one.

-German PAK (T2 PAK) is still garbage, didn't build them before and still wont. In fact, I'd like to see a statistical breakdown of German win/loss showing if a PAK was built. My guess is that 99.99% of German wins are from games where no PAK's are ever built. Conversely, I bet the vast majority of players as having built at least one PAK lost that game. The point is the PAK is just a troll item on which to waste the unaware players resources, serve no other purpose, have stolen and probably used against you. If your building PAK's your losing games.

Back to topic:
-There's a real issue with SU-85's supported by MG's and/or snipers. The combination prevents any breakthrough by the germans do to a lack of indirect arty (panzerwerfer moved to t4 from t3 caused this).
-MG/sniper/SU85 or some varient is too effective at locking down the map and makes for stale, non-dynamic gameplay.
-Su-85 is OP by any reasonable thinking person.

Back to topic:
-There's a real issue with SU-85's supported by MG's and/or snipers. The combination prevents any breakthrough by the germans do to a lack of indirect arty (panzerwerfer moved to t4 from t3 caused this).
-MG/sniper/SU85 or some varient is too effective at locking down the map and makes for stale, non-dynamic gameplay.
-Su-85 is OP by any reasonable thinking person.

Agreed on this. On pripiyat: Sniper/m3 into guards into su85, with maxims/120mm. This means he can just camp and lock down. No real option for me to lock down like that early/mid game. The german mortar is just not strong enough to break a lockdown like that. Flanking with my p4 is nigh impossible with at nades and very limited room to maneuver. I have no trouble with su85 on a map like moscow, but on smaller chokey maps they are just too strong. The russian doesnt need much skill to pull it off either cos su85 is so easy to use. My infantry cant advance effectively either unless i have extremely overwhelming numbers (which always happens right?).

However I disagree about T34. Russians need another option apart from the su85. The T34 ram is what screwed things up because the tank must be made weak to make up for the ramming ability. T34 should be up-gunnable or just have a bit better at.

If relic simply nerfs su85 then soviets wont have a great way to deal with p4's. Thus i think

1. nerf su85 reverse speed. (leave damage, so it will still be very effective)
2. buff t34 at slightly or give it upgun option.
3. buff stug range and line of sight to equal su85. (then germans wont HAVE to always spam p4's)

Agreed on this. On pripiyat: Sniper/m3 into guards into su85, with maxims/120mm. This means he can just camp and lock down. No real option for me to lock down like that early/mid game. The german mortar is just not strong enough to break a lockdown like that. Flanking with my p4 is nigh impossible with at nades and very limited room to maneuver. I have no trouble with su85 on a map like moscow, but on smaller chokey maps they are just too strong. The russian doesnt need much skill to pull it off either cos su85 is so easy to use. My infantry cant advance effectively either unless i have extremely overwhelming numbers (which always happens right?).

Is this a joke? Pripyat is such a German cheese map it's not even funny. Most of the time I don't even bother to play it. It's so trivial to lock down the chokepoints with the MG42/mortar/Pak/bunker combo (pick a few). Good luck ever flanking those MGs in the early game, leading to mid and late game German dominance. This map completely negates the benefits of Soviet early game play (flanking, map control) if the German is half decent.

But on topic, yeah the SU-85 needs to be toned down, but only in conjunction with a ZiS buff (and probably a P4 nerf) or Soviets have no way to deal with German armor.

Off topic:
-T34 needs a nerf not a buff. Of everyone who says otherwise, a flaw in their reasoning: comparison of the T34 to P4 when they are not meant to be 'equals'. T34 has RAM and can instantly disable any tank in the game. For free. It also kills infantry much faster than the P4 and almost as fast as the Ostwind. The P4 this is not, it's better in many respects, especially for its cost. Talk of buffing the T34 needs to end, now.

-Early beta Brummbar was potent against infantry to a worthwhile degree, but that changed. And now I'll never build one.

-German PAK (T2 PAK) is still garbage, didn't build them before and still wont. In fact, I'd like to see a statistical breakdown of German win/loss showing if a PAK was built. My guess is that 99.99% of German wins are from games where no PAK's are ever built. Conversely, I bet the vast majority of players as having built at least one PAK lost that game. The point is the PAK is just a troll item on which to waste the unaware players resources, serve no other purpose, have stolen and probably used against you. If your building PAK's your losing games.

Back to topic:
-There's a real issue with SU-85's supported by MG's and/or snipers. The combination prevents any breakthrough by the germans do to a lack of indirect arty (panzerwerfer moved to t4 from t3 caused this).
-MG/sniper/SU85 or some varient is too effective at locking down the map and makes for stale, non-dynamic gameplay.
-Su-85 is OP by any reasonable thinking person.

after seeing "Ram" is free, T-34 kills infantry as fast as ostwind, I stopped reading


first, ask SU-85 nerf and ignore the fact that how cost-effective PZIV is compare to any soviet tank, and never clam that PZIV beats a doctrinal more expensive T-34/85 is not a problem, PZIV beats a T-34/76 which costs 95fuel with 80% health left is not an issue, and ask for a T-34/76 nerf????????

seriously, ppl play against soviet with his hypothesis has no place in balance forum here.

Is this a joke? Pripyat is such a German cheese map it's not even funny. Most of the time I don't even bother to play it. It's so trivial to lock down the chokepoints with the MG42/mortar/Pak/bunker combo (pick a few). Good luck ever flanking those MGs in the early game, leading to mid and late game German dominance. This map completely negates the benefits of Soviet early game play (flanking, map control) if the German is half decent.

But on topic, yeah the SU-85 needs to be toned down, but only in conjunction with a ZiS buff (and probably a P4 nerf) or Soviets have no way to deal with German armor.

I do agree early game for germans is not too bad on pripiyat, i was referring to the time from when the su85 comes out. Also, mg's and paks are easily dealt with using snipers. I dont really rely on mg's too much tbh, grens are much more mobile. Rarely get more than one mg on that map. And paks are shit vs su85's and just shit in general, even with 4 men. They miss way to much and dont have the barrage. I think pak and zis needs accuracy buff.

Point is I can hold the middle for a while, but once the su85 comes out it is incredibly hard to counter thats all. Not un-doable but very(maybe too) hard.
Think I should start using tellers or riegels more.

after seeing "Ram" is free, T-34 kills infantry as fast as ostwind, I stopped reading


first, ask SU-85 nerf and ignore the fact that how cost-effective PZIV is compare to any soviet tank, and never clam that PZIV beats a doctrinal more expensive T-34/85 is not a problem, PZIV beats a T-34/76 which costs 95fuel with 80% health left is not an issue, and ask for a T-34/76 nerf????????

seriously, ppl play against soviet with his hypothesis has no place in balance forum here.

I think by saying "ram is free" he meant it doesn't require veterancy.

That being said, I agree with you that p4 is efficient and T34 is underpowered. They shouldnt nerf p4 though, they should just buff t34 a bit, or alternatively buff paks/zis or furter alternatively buff stug range and nerf su85 reverse. Currently paks are shite vs su85's which isnt how it should be imo.

On Pripyat, the best way to counter SU-85s is to abuse the narrow lanes in the middle of the map, and mine your side in case it comes across, if you can flank the Soviet army from both bridges + ice in the middle with all your stuff, you will surround them and can mortar the infantry/suppress with MGs, while tearing at the su-85 with shrecks, paks and P-IVs.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it would be the same for a Soviet player attacking a German hold on the middle of that map. Combined arms to defeat the entire army, not *Blitzkrieg P-IV and hope for the best* as I see some people do. Support your units well and it will reward you.

Mortar smoke and smoke in general would also be incredibly useful on that map, again due to the different approaches.

One other thing to note, a Pak-43 set up just behind and away from whichever VP your base is closest to, will do a great job in denying tank access to your side of the map. Sure you will be bombarded with artillery and it will be a manpower drain, but you deny him using armour to attack your side of the map. It can help if you have a unit to harass artillery (whatever is hitting your pak-43 would have to be outside of their base), and a reinforce bunker or halftrack or such on hand. Just don't expect to be able to sit back and relax once it goes up, you need to pressure the Soviet into making an attack, not building artillery and shelling you to pieces.

I think by saying "ram is free" he meant it doesn't require veterancy.

That being said, I agree with you that p4 is efficient and T34 is underpowered. They shouldnt nerf p4 though, they should just buff t34 a bit, or alternatively buff paks/zis or furter alternatively buff stug range and nerf su85 reverse. Currently paks are shite vs su85's which isnt how it should be imo.

When the Stug gets a buff, either the P-IVs anti-tank (most preferred) or anti-infantry capability needs to be toned down. At the moment it can both potentially 2-shot squads and 3-4 shot Soviet tanks (su-76, t34/76, and even if it gets side/rear shots on an SU-85 it will do the same).

In fact, the P-IV is a bit too strong anyway, and the reason every German spams them is not just because the other options are worse (although the Stug is), but that the P-IV over-performs. No idea why there aren't a couple more "this Ostheer unit is a bit too strong" threads, but there you go.

As someone who plays mostly german and 2v2 games, this is my problem with the SU85:

I know my opponent will go SU85, sooner or later. Whatever tank I'l make will have to Stay Behind my infantry if I ever plan to attack where the opponent is prepared, so naturally that means more Infantry and less tanks, as well as PAKs (since the patch).

PAKs work fine (still a bullet spunge), but it's a bit odd that I have to use them as an Offensive unit, using my tanks to protect them from infantry (staying behind them) instead of attacking with my tanks and using my PAKs to shoot enemy tanks. I find my tanks, for the most part being the reserv, because there is usually no way for them to approach without being harassed from afar by SU85s.

I've found myself using cheaper Fuel units (scout cars, halftrack), more and more. Still lacking a mobile anti tank gun though (I loved the stug before it was changed).

I wish the soviets had other options than just the SU85 (still has too long range and speed for my liking), or that the germans had some cheaper more spammable vehicle to throw against it.

after seeing "Ram" is free, T-34 kills infantry as fast as ostwind, I stopped reading

OFF TOPIC: (T34 discussion)
If you quit reading it's due to embarrassingly low reading comprehension, I said none of what you claim. Let's walk through your above statement point by point:

"Ram is Free".
Does RAM cost munitions? No.
Does ram require a vet ability? No.
Does ram require some other form or type of upgrade? No.
Is there any cost to ram at all? No.
Did you answer YES to any of those questions? No? Well then, RAM is "free", isn't it?
I suppose you'll attempt to argue the "cost" of ram is the disabling of the T34 itself. But the T34 is a cheap spammable throwaway, hardly a loss of any significance. That is assuming you lost it. Often not the case. It's much easier and faster to repair than the P4. Oh, and Russian tanks can self-heal via a doctrine ability (though I don't like to bring doctrine abilities into these discussions for all sorts of reasons).

So, RAM is free. It comes at no cost to the soviet player. If he's losing a tank battle, he can just RAM in his final moments and still possibly save his tank. P4's can't do that.

Now let's address the second statement: "T34 kills infantry as fast as Ostwind". I never said this. I wont even bother quoting myself because it'll embarrass you further. You know what I said. But go back and look and you will see clearly I stated the T34 kills infantry better than the P4 and almost as good as the Ostwind. Both are true. The T34 is a tanky-Ostwind. Ask yourself, what tank in the game comes as close to the Ostwind in infantry killing? The answer is the T34. ONly a swarm of the russian mini-tanks kills faster than the T34.

All of this is wildly OFF TOPIC. Let's save the T34 discussions for its own thread.

BACK TO TOPIC: I will also add to other voices here that the SU-85 routinely snipes infantry at all ranges in all types of situations. And it forces you to pause and lay on the ground. It's maddening. Not even the Elephant snipes infantry. Ridiculous. Not to mention the infantry sniping is causing a whole host of other imbalances, like with PAK.

One of the nerfs to the STUG reduced actual range while maintaining its sight range, so the tank can see beyond what it can actually shoot. If RELIC finds that acceptable for the STUG then I propose a similar nerf to the SU-85.

There's three major issues to address with the SU-85, and several more as secondary:
(1) the infantry killing power.
(2) the front/turning/reverse speed, at least one of three should be adjusted. Ideally, two.
(3) its cost. T4 comes too early and too often. Assuming the stats are properly adjusted perhaps this should be left alone. If however nothing's adjusted then this needs to be looked at. It's killing the gameplay.

Dear diary, my opponent built an SU-85 today. I had just completed my first Panzer IV and I was ready to kick some bolshevik ass, but it turns out that I have to flank the tank due to the low mobility, high armor penetration, and frontal armor the SU-85 has.

Due to the ridiculousness of the SU-85, I had lost the game! I do not know how I lost! It was probably because the SU-85 is literally impossible to deal with.

Every Soviet player constantly reminds us that the German armor is completely overpowered.

Maybe someday I'll be able to play a 2v2 and not be completely anally fucked due to the brokenness of the SU-85. I can only hope. In the mean time, I'll play with my unpowered Panzer IVs.


taken from 1 of my reddit posts

If the russian just keeps his su-85 supported like i keep my tanks supported I can't advance against him.

This is absolutely the toughest thing to break and I've had countless games like this. The SU-85 supported with MG's and snipers and usually a mortar plus your pick of infantry, and often with at least one ZiS, is basically uncrackable. All of this comes soooo early too. And it's not map specific, this works on open maps as much as closed-in.

Counter's simply don't exist. You have to address the infantry before the SU-85 but that's impossible seeing as there's MG's and snipers. So, you need to use vehicles. But that's impossible because of the SU-85's (and again, usually a ZiS for taste).

ONly arty can break it. But as long as arty is in T4....

Good luck ever getting there.

If you really hate SU-85s that much, just pick Jaeger Armor for the Elefant or one of the Pak 43 commanders. This discussion is silly.

^^^^trololololol

The Ram ability for the T34 is not "technically" free. If you use it, your tank will be vastly underpowered until you repair it. That's a pseudo cost, since ti reduces your field presence slightly.

The SU-85 is not low on mobility. It doesn't have a turret, but its maneuverability is fairly high for a tank that hits that hard, that far. A smart Soviet player doesn't leave his flanks very open, but there is ALWAYS a weak spot in the enemy army's composition and positioning.

If the enemy has a Maxim or sniper supporting it, then either the Soviet is outplaying you (that sniper should be dead by then) or he has a lot of resources and it is late game. If you can reach T4, a Panzerwerfer can decimate the support units, leaving the SU-85 vulnerable. DONT use off map bombardment: they are too obvious and easy to dodge.

(that sniper should be dead by then)

Lol just at this. german sniper can't counter snipe and armoured cars get murdered by su-85's. It really doesnt take that much skill for him to keep his snipers alive till his su85 comes out. You might get veeery lucky with a mortar hit but other than that its hard to kill soviet snipers controlled by a reasonably skilled opponent.

Lol just at this. german sniper can't counter snipe and armoured cars get murdered by su-85's. It really doesnt take that much skill for him to keep his snipers alive till his su85 comes out. You might get veeery lucky with a mortar hit but other than that its hard to kill soviet snipers controlled by a reasonably skilled opponent.

Read the post again: Go for panzerwerfers if you can. I play 2v2's mostly, where the SU-85 is much, MUCH more spammable, and sdkfz 222's can still outflank the enemy snipers, especially if you send a recon run out there to survey. If the SU-85 shot your scout car before you shoot the sniper away, then you are doing it wrong.

Many times, simply killing that one sniper will discourage the player for building another one, for fear of losing that much manpower. Without snipers, maxims can be taken out with indirect fire barrages and smoke. In fact, smoke will most like force the SU-85 to back up or relocate, because it loses its true advantage: range.

Read the post again: Go for panzerwerfers if you can. I play 2v2's mostly, where the SU-85 is much, MUCH more spammable, and sdkfz 222's can still outflank the enemy snipers, especially if you send a recon run out there to survey. If the SU-85 shot your scout car before you shoot the sniper away, then you are doing it wrong.

Many times, simply killing that one sniper will discourage the player for building another one, for fear of losing that much manpower. Without snipers, maxims can be taken out with indirect fire barrages and smoke. In fact, smoke will most like force the SU-85 to back up or relocate, because it loses its true advantage: range.

Yeah what CombatMuffin is saying. Need arty to break the stationary russian chokehold. Panzerwerfers preferably, but the Mortar halftrack does a good job covering as well (both smoke and fire).

I think the PIV is just right, as is.

Hahaha, of course you do. After you conveniently ignore the fact its the best tank in the game for cost.

and the Panther needs to become a more powerful Tank Killer, now that the SU-85 takes that crown.

Panther is already a better tank killer than Su85.