SU-85; The Thread

gerams need too much ammo, commies need to much fuel, MVGame

Keep in mind any changes to the Stug to improve its viability will inadvertently reduce the viability of the T34, which also seems to be a key concern within the community.

This issue is fairly complex unfortunately.

I can totally understand that, it can't be easy balancing a game like this. That being said the stug rarely ever gets built since waiting 25 fuel for a p4 makes so much more sense. If the T34's viability will suffer from giving the stug a cone viz ability, then give the t34 a slight buff to make it more viable?

Thing is just that its kindof irritating that the russians can field an su85 so quickly (roughly the same time as germans can field a p4) and have extremely long line of sight. I dont want to be forced to go the elefant doctrine to get scopes to be able to see the su85. Vision is everything in coh, and his su85 can see my movements and basically 'spots' for itself.

Here is an alternative solution: (just theory-crafting...)

Bring back the "spotting unit element" we had in vcoh. I used to love to get a bike to spot for my stug mid game.

Thus give the german 221/222 very long sight range, or a spotter ability when standing still, so you can at least see the su85 when it can see you.

Give the m3 the same spotting ability as the 221/222.

Both factions have access to incredibly useful recon plane callins, Mauser.

Both factions have access to incredibly useful recon plane callins, Mauser.

Yes, and one faction has early access to a non-doctrinal tank with its own spotter that doesn't cost any munitions. Vision/scouting is very important in this (and any) RTS.

Still, 2 cps and the muni cost is reached before 11/12 minutes right? Winter might be problematic, but the su-85's vision is also reduced.

Still, 2 cps and the muni cost is reached before 11/12 minutes right? Winter might be problematic, but the su-85's vision is also reduced.

Yeah, but germans already need munitions for 100000 other things, just feel they also need a vanilla unit with cone visibility

edit: remember its also near fucking impossible flanking an su85 in a blizzard.

Im a German player only, and I dont think SU85 is OP or broken.

Any decent player can safely deal with this tank using ATguns, Shrecks, Pfausts, P4s and so on...

The thing is slow....can be flanked...and does jackshit to infantry.

ATguns demolish it....Shrecked Pgrens also.

I personnally love to circle strafe it with a P4....grab a doctrine with Tank smoke...bring a single Gren squad..PanzerFaust it...and just run around it.

The only thing an SU85 requires to be beaten...is smart play.

Get smart.

Darker, everything you just described can be countered by a good Soviet player.

Also, by "Slow" do you mean 5.3 speed when a Panther is 5.5? good good.

Im a German player only, and I dont think SU85 is OP or broken.

Any decent player can safely deal with this tank using ATguns, Shrecks, Pfausts, P4s and so on...

The thing is slow....can be flanked...and does jackshit to infantry.

ATguns demolish it....Shrecked Pgrens also.

I personnally love to circle strafe it with a P4....grab a doctrine with Tank smoke...bring a single Gren squad..PanzerFaust it...and just run around it.

The only thing an SU85 requires to be beaten...is smart play.

Get smart.

Thank you for saying this. I think the su-85 really needs to be as effective as it is, just because there is nothing else that covers it's role.

The SU-85 seems to be op for those who play against it because it is the direct counter to what is German meta of using tanks as their main strike force. It isn't like it doesn't have counters. Shrecked Pgrens, PAKs, Ferdinand, the buildable Pak. Are all great at destroying them.

That said they could be more expensive, but that would leave a huge gap for players who go for tier 4.
If I would suggest anything it would be to make the SU-85 20 or so more expensive fuel wise, and buff SU-76's penetration so it can effectively damage PZ4s and be a good stopgap unit.

Thank you for saying this. I think the su-85 really needs to be as effective as it is, just because there is nothing else that covers it's role.

The SU-85 seems to be op for those who play against it because it is the direct counter to what is German meta of using tanks as their main strike force. It isn't like it doesn't have counters. Shrecked Pgrens, PAKs, Ferdinand, the buildable Pak. Are all great at destroying them.

That said they could be more expensive, but that would leave a huge gap for players who go for tier 4.
If I would suggest anything it would be to make the SU-85 20 or so more expensive fuel wise, and buff SU-76's penetration so it can effectively damage PZ4s and be a good stopgap unit.

My problem is more that of those 'counters', the speed and range of the SU-85 tends to invalidate them (the vulnerable PAK-43 and uber-pricey elephant are the only really solid ones). P-grens and paks can only really force one back rather than killing one (assuming decent Soviet player), and the SU is just about good enough at sniping infantry vs the small German squads and particularly it tends to make infantry jump around, which stops shreks firing. It's almost impossible to actually kill a well-managed SU-85 without pursuing it with armour, which is the problem I have with them. I'd mostly like to see the speed and turning (and the LOS) nerfed so it's more likely to get ganked if well-positioned shreks and paks catch it and is slightly less good at chasing down things.

Im a German player only, and I dont think SU85 is OP or broken.

Any decent player can safely deal with this tank using ATguns, Shrecks, Pfausts, P4s and so on...

The thing is slow....can be flanked...and does jackshit to infantry.

ATguns demolish it....Shrecked Pgrens also.

I personnally love to circle strafe it with a P4....grab a doctrine with Tank smoke...bring a single Gren squad..PanzerFaust it...and just run around it.

The only thing an SU85 requires to be beaten...is smart play.

Get smart.

It is slow? Really? In reverse it outruns everything but a panther. And a panther is only
a smidgen faster so if the su 85 backs up before panther gets too close it can prevent being flanked. It is not slow. So now you know that, Do you change your mind about it. Or will you make up other things to justify it.

At guns demolish it? Really?

Are you talking about pak 40s? Really?

If pak40s didn't suck so hard, I dont think su85s would be such a pita. But since pak40 is almost useless as anti tank, taking on su 85 requires....

Su 85 owner to be brainless

Su 85 owner goes so deep into enemy territory that no reverse turbo boosters can save it

A drive around the map with a panther so you maybe can sneak up behind it without it turbo reverse sniping.

A drive around the map with 2 p4s so you maybe can sneak up behind it without it turbo reverse sniping.

A pak40 and su85 users child jumping into their lap keeping them from turbo reversing while pak 40 misses or fails to penetrate most of the 10-15 shots it will take trying to kill an su 85.\

A PAK43 and a non attentive su 85 user who strays in the limited range of the immobile cannon and stays there.

a non attentive Su 85 user who stands there while tank is hit with panzerschrecks, instead of just turbo reversing.


Flanking one is hard

flanking 2 is a monumental task.

All the SU-85 needs is a slight speed and turning speed nerf, and for PAK's to have better accuracy.

All the SU-85 needs is a slight speed and turning speed nerf, and for PAK's to have better accuracy.

I'm all for making the pak more accurate and seeing some of the developers feedback that is most likely going to happen, but if the turning speed is turned down any PZ4 can just take the first hit, run up to it, and begin circle strafing. That's what the blitzkrieg ability is for. So it's not like it's impossible to do right now, you just need a single vetted tank, but as I said in my last post the SU-85 is worth a little more then it currently is.

I'm all for making the pak more accurate and seeing some of the developers feedback that is most likely going to happen, but if the turning speed is turned down any PZ4 can just take the first hit, run up to it, and begin circle strafing. That's what the blitzkrieg ability is for. So it's not like it's impossible to do right now, you just need a single vetted tank, but as I said in my last post the SU-85 is worth a little more then it currently is.

The reversing SU-85 is faster than a P-IV and also has much longer range, so I'm not really sure this is a likely scenario given good Soviet management. I'd kind of like this since it promotes combined arms unless the SU-85 is at range like it should be.

The reversing SU-85 is faster than a P-IV and also has much longer range, so I'm not really sure this is a likely scenario given good Soviet management. I'd kind of like this since it promotes combined arms unless the SU-85 is at range like it should be.

I don't have an issue with the SU-85s Range or penetration, but I do have an issue with its mobility.

I have no problems playing vs Su85s...this is all Im saying. Use fog of war ....flank it properly...circle strafe with P4.

Atguns are not bad at all..specially now with 4 men.

Have you ever tried flanking one in the snow? he just reverses and keeps sniping your p4. And on a map like kolodny its also hard to pull off if he has half a brain he will support his su with infantry and let the su look over the chokepoint. If I lead in with infantry they get surpressed by maxims or he drops incindiary or whatever. He backs up his SU-85 and my p4 will lose all day as long if he has reaction time better than that of a moose.

Its not that it is un-flankable, I have killed many su-85's by circle strafing it but its usually when the soviet is being agressive. When the soviet plays the turtle camping game at the vp's it becomes problematic when all i got is t3. Flanking on some maps are also hard when his su is well positioned and you dont want to risk losing your p4 by getting it at naded etc..

Incresing its cost might "limit" t4 play of soviets slightly, but remember germans dont even have that option at all. Its reversing also shouldn't be that fast its just silly. You don't always have a vetted tank to blitz past it.

I just feel this unit encourages turtle slugfest play by the soviet which is not fun imo. It really doesn't take that much skill to just get semi-decent map control as soviet and once you get su-85 all you do is keep it back, drain vp's and harass. Sure it takes skill, but countering this takes significantly more skill from the german player imo.

And having to go a certain doctrine(elefant/pak43) to counter a non-doctrinal tank is stupid. The doctrinal counter also arrives veeeerry late and games are often lost by that time. Soft counters like schreks/fausts/paks only work if you are facing a noobish or overly agressive soviet player. If he is a turtle type guy you are gonna have a bad day.

One thing I still want to try is to use mortar smoke/smoke bombs(again, doctrinal) to cover an advance. This may well work, If you know exactly where he is hiding his su-85, but it seems like a very complicated counter to a unit that is so easy to use by the soviet. Sure soviets also face challenges to counter german armor but their counters are just normally easier to execute. Eg: ram-one button counter to even best german armor, and su-85-counters all german armor exept the elefant(rarely built cos so laaaaate game), and their zis not only counters armor and is durable but heck it can even barrage infantry. I am not saying russian counters are super easy to pull off, i just think countering su-85's is harder than it should be and must be looked at.

Using SU-85 is really not that difficult if you are a capable soviet player and back it up with AI support, and reverse out of danger. Not to mention once you get 2 su-85's it becomes exponentially harder to break. One unit alone shouldn't require pro skills to counter, it should be the other player's skill that requires equal skill from his opponent to counter.

TL;DR
Tweak su-85 reverse speed or sight range or cost a bit. If necessary buff the t34 and give it a bit more cost so that soviets can't complain that su-85 is "only useful at they got". (I personally think ram is great but hey that might just be me).

I have no problems playing vs Su85s...this is all Im saying. Use fog of war ....flank it properly...circle strafe with P4.

Atguns are not bad at all..specially now with 4 men.

SU-85 can camp all day out of range of your pak. Fog of war is great on big maps, but on smaller maps with chokepoints you can't really flank through fow without driving around far from your intended advance point, thereby exposing the flanking tank to at nades etc, isolating it from support(north of kolodny and centre of minsk for example).

Tweak su-85 reverse speed or sight range or cost a bit. If necessary buff the t34 and give it a bit more cost so that soviets can't complain that su-85 is "only useful at they got". (I personally think ram is great but hey that might just be me).

The T34 has nothing to do with the balance of the SU-85 as the buildings cost too much to get both out and still build from them effectively. Soviet T3 and T4 both need to be viable on their own which is why this is such a touchy issue. If tier 4 can't effectively repel the inevitable armor then the building quickly becomes useless.

Personally I would love for SU-76 to be used more for a general purpose role and have the SU-85 be a more "heavier" expensive counter to armor.

I would personally like the Stug to make a Comeback. I think it should be able to deal with an SU85.

Its in a sad state right now...and would be of great help againt this soviet Tank