(May Preview Mod) Penal Batalion

That is a reading comprehension fail on your part.
I never said they don't get any defensive bonuses.
Rifles are becoming tanky, cons are becoming tanky.
Volks and penals are becoming more durable, but hardly tanky.

No it is not, if you cant write what you want to say stop blaming others.

First of all there is no mention to vet 3 bonuses and Pennal are more or about the same "durable" or "tanky" or what ever else you want to call until vet 3, furthermore there is no mention on the type of weapon you are talking about and Penal are tankier vs explosives, vs ballistic, and sniper due to extra entities.

Second if you want to change the meaning of word as you see fit and expect other to understand you probably have to create you own dictionary.

Penals are more durable then most axis infantry, their vet 1 ability increase their survivability and thus they are "tanky"

Unfortunately I don't have the time to debate BS with you so have a nice day.

Pg are more expensive, bleed harder especially with merge, come later thus usually will have to face vetted Penals and have a much higher tech cost.

Of course pgs have higher tech costs, but you tech t2 anyways. Pgrens have -10% reduced reinforcement costs relative to production costs. penals don't. Pgrens wreck penals in mid and close range. Pgrens have grenades, Pgrens get schreck for late game purpose. Pgrens cost more, because pgrens are plain better than penals.

if you want to change the meaning of word as you see fit and expect other to understand you probably have to create you own dictionary.

There is a very short dictionary for him already, just replace every sentence with "Muh axis OpieOp, Le allies UP mimimi"

Panzergrenadiers do well against penals, just place them in heavy cover if possible and they might even win a long range fight.

and flamer will do bonus damage to Pgrens cause they are on heavy cover, no ?

I really dont see Pgrens winning a fight against Penal squad heavy cover VS heavy cover at mid range, cause flamer

and flamer will do bonus damage to Pgrens cause they are on heavy cover, no ?

I really dont see Pgrens winning a fight against Penal squad heavy cover VS heavy cover at mid range, cause flamer

Yes, 1.25 modifier from infantry flamers.
And on the long range, PGs will lose anyway.

Short range however its pure RNG, whoever will better focus and snipe models will win with PGs advantage as they have ~100% higher DPS on close range(on per squad basis).

Of course pgs have higher tech costs, but you tech t2 anyways. Pgrens have -10% reduced reinforcement costs relative to production costs. penals don't. Pgrens wreck penals in mid and close range. Pgrens have grenades, Pgrens get schreck for late game purpose. Pgrens cost more, because pgrens are plain better than penals.

It is not just the tech cost they come much later (by that time one probably has to make an AT unit) and so they are facing vetted units.

PG reinforce with 34 which is allot more than most Allied infantry, 36% more than Penal (25) and 70% more than merge...

Pg do not actually wreck Penals at mid, the fight is very much related to veterancy and cover. By vet 3 the break about even and usually PG get cut down when they try to approach.

With shreck they simply change roles so it rather irrelevant.

Pg are not "plain better" and are actually less cost efficient than Penal as AI, given the time the hit the field their cost and bleed.

And that is one of the main issues with Penal they can beat or break even against axis stock infantries even when fighting in the axis optimum ranges. They can beat LMG gren far and PGs mid.

The balance would be allot better if Penal had an optimum range (close mid or far and suitable weapon smg, carbine, bolts action/lmg and weapon upgrades, vet bonuses and vet abilities to much) so axis could use relative positioning to gain an advantage over them.

(The some goes for st 44 V.G. probably in lesser extend).

It is not just the tech cost they come much later (by that time one probably has to make an AT unit) and so they are facing vetted units.

Yeah, you'll get to vet3 with penals within these 3 minutes.

Since you don't seem to play the game any more then me, first vet2 infantry appears around 8th minute.
Vet1 at most and only if opponent won't be retreating until last man.

PG reinforce with 34 which is allot more than most Allied infantry, 36% more than Penal (25) and 70% more than merge...

Yeah, 3x34(102) is so much more then 5x22(110) or 5x20(100) or 4x28(112).
Lets ignore squad size, because why the fuck not, after all every single squad in game have same number of entities and squads are balanced exclusively on model vs model basis, not squad vs squad.

Pg do not actually wreck Penals at mid, the fight is very much related to veterancy and cover. By vet 3 the break about even and usually PG get cut down when they try to approach.

With shreck they simply change roles so it rather irrelevant.

Pg are not "plain better" and are actually less cost efficient than Penal as AI, given the time the hit the field their cost and bleed.

At least this part is somewhat accurate, however penal vs pg engagement will depend on more variables, unless you always YOLO through the open ground against static unit shooting at you.

When forced to approach, PGs might lose, when penals get jumped on mid to short range, penals might lose.
Its not black and white scenario.

Yes, 1.25 modifier from infantry flamers.
And on the long range, PGs will lose anyway.

Short range however its pure RNG, whoever will better focus and snipe models will win with PGs advantage as they have ~100% higher DPS on close range(on per squad basis).

1.25 modifier, Aoe on a clump up squad, totally ignoring receive accuracy ( its normal, but its totaly nullify the less entity per squad but less receive accuracy OST thing )

NB: as you all see i hate flamers as it nullify so much mechanics on COH2, its ok on engy cause they are fragile, in rifles it was a bad idea, now that penal are buffed, flamer on them is strange

Yeah, you'll get to vet3 with penals within these 3 minutes.
Since you don't seem to play the game any more then me, first vet2 infantry appears around 8th minute.
Vet1 at most and only if opponent won't be retreating until last man.

In one game I managed to get to my first Penal battalion at vet 3 by minute 7 by placing it in house close to enemy base...

By what time do you think Pg hit the field in a normal game?

Even if only vet 1 Penals will already have bonus while PG need more XP to vet and only get a bonus at VET 2 (unless you consider medic kit a bonus)

If you played the game you would probably know that you don't have to kill models to earn veterancy but it seem you think that opponent has to retreat when down to 1 man in order for one to gain veterancy...

Yeah, 3x34(102) is so much more then 5x22(110) or 5x20(100) or 4x28(112).
Lets ignore squad size, because why the fuck not, after all every single squad in game have same number of entities and squads are balanced exclusively on model vs model basis, not squad vs squad.

You don't pay to reinforce by squad size but by entity lost. They way you "try" bring the squad size is the calculation is completely wrong and indicates a strong bias...

If in fight one player lose 8 PG entities with an effective HP of 8*80/0.80= 800 EHP that would cost him 272 MP. If his opponent loses the same EFH 800/80= 10 entities those would cost 250 for penal (no idea where you got the 22)or 200 for conscripts.

In other words the axis player would had bleeded 9% more or 36% if one used merge. And that is without out counting the the fact that Pg have to retreat earlier or that it would take them allot more time to reinforce or that in the case of penals the damage will spread to more entities so that will probably lead to less entities lost.

Glad to see that you at acknowledge that Penal do not get "wrecked" by PGs.

Your emote are so cute, but the rest of your post is rather poor, and pls try to use less profanities.

and flamer will do bonus damage to Pgrens cause they are on heavy cover, no ?

I really dont see Pgrens winning a fight against Penal squad heavy cover VS heavy cover at mid range, cause flamer

Pg are more expensive, bleed harder especially with merge, come later thus usually will have to face vetted Penals and have a much higher tech cost.

the pgrens are not a good standard of measurement. They are not really useful aside from brain dead schreck spam.

the pgrens are not a good standard of measurement. They are not really useful aside from brain dead schreck spam.

Maybe their are not but it is either them or grens and they also can not handle them...

And since USF support weapons and Soviet stock infantry are buffed they should also receive a buff.

In addition PG are the best stock infantry available to Wer if they cant handle Penals Ostheer does not have a stock infantry to handle them...

And thas is one of the reason this patch is going down the wrong way.

Maybe their are not but it is either them or grens and they also can not handle them...

And since USF support weapons and Soviet stock infantry are buffed they should also receive a buff.

In addition PG are the best stock infantry available to Wer if they cant handle Penals Ostheer does not have a stock infantry to handle them...

And thas is one of the reason this patch is going down the wrong way.

Sounds like its a good thing werh have MG42s from T0.

Conscripts vs Obers are the same issue if we are only looking at stock infantry and I would rather Wer support crews backing my infantry over Sovs.

Panzergrens do need a little love though but I think it should come in the form of a 5 man squad to decrease squad wipe chance to indirect fire, adjust dps output to be the equiv as it is in the 4 man format and then reduced damage output due to model loss but reduce to a single shrek upgrade at 90 fuel. This will also help give alternate infantry option to multiple snipers (even though they did get a nerf) but the bleed on wer is real.

Sounds like its a good thing werh have MG42s from T0.

So in the effort to fix maxim spam will drive Wer to MG42 spam.

Panzergrens do need a little love though but I think it should come in the form of a 5 man squad

If these changes go ahead as in the patch it highly probable that Wer infantry squad sizes will have to be increased but I can hardly can see how a 5 men PG squad with 1 shreck will work. Blobbing these squad would be worse the VG blobs...

Once again this patch is going to the wrong direction, because although the game was pretty much balanced in order to fix diversity issues it redesigns factions while creating major balance issues in the processes and reducing flavor in processes.

But it seems that we are drifting a bit of topic..

penals have been shit for 3 years, then they get a buff to be competitive and axis players flip their lid

penals have been shit for 3 years, then they get a buff to be competitive and axis players flip their lid

That is one less 'free kill' unit.

Come on, axis players in a state of deep shock, SU-76, T34/76, Guards being long range infantry instead of pro dancers, partisans being made useful, Quad given the ability to actually kill stuff.

If we continue this madness, then none of soviet units will be a free exp provider any longer and axis only stars are used to every second of them being given that role.

Obviously they will flip. Some will even go down because of the shock and we'll have to call whambulance for aid.

So in the effort to fix maxim spam will drive Wer to MG42 spam.

I was more suggesting that if a sov player does T1 penal spam you can respond with the best early counter to it without waiting to Tier. I personally think baseline infantry should be completely reworked and MG's should be accessed like the USF. I'm not a fan of instant MG's into key buildings on certain maps.

I don't think anyone wants to see double shreck Pnzer Grens with 5 members. Atleast with 4man the AI drop is significant. Would be scary seeing more durable, strongest handheld AT and still significant AI output they would have unless the costs were adjusted however Wehr need a standard tech 5man squad in mid-late game at least.

Your right, off topic though.

Aside from my dislike of the flamer change back to SVTs which means Rifle Flamers 1.25, I don't see Penals being that big of an issue aside from a few things that need to be changed:

-Model cost from 25 to 27 (You can place upgrades that ensure the squad cost remains the same at 300)
-Veterancy 3 Accuracy bonus from 1.3 to 1.15 or 1.10.
-Something to ensure Penal flamers need some support unit or are forced to close the distance rather than gunning people down who leave cover due to the flamer.

-Model cost from 25 to 27 (You can place upgrades that ensure the squad cost remains the same at 300)

Wouldn't that make penals the only squad in game which pays more then the actual reinforce formula indicates? You could argue merge, but that requires already another squad and they'd become even more squishy because of low defensive vet bonuses.

-Veterancy 3 Accuracy bonus from 1.3 to 1.15 or 1.10.

Wouldn't that create scaling issue?
They don't get much rec acc after all and are one of the least tanky squads at max vet and pretty much every unit except for partisans would outscale them.

Flamer isn't a bad weapon, but it doesn't really benefit from accuracy, so it would all boil down to basic rifles. Considering the vet and the flamer, rifles alone at long range at vet3 currently would do ~13 dps.

Sure, it looks better at close range, but again, their per model durability is not really high, so closing in when there is more then a single squad might not be the best idea due to vulnerability to focus fire.

-Something to ensure Penal flamers need some support unit or are forced to close the distance rather than gunning people down who leave cover due to the flamer.

Mixed on that one.
Sure, penals are going to be rather potent vs garrisons and units in heavy cover, but they got nothing on snipers, light armor and suppression, therefore just spamming them can lead to them being quickly hardcountered as they aren't really as flexible as rifles are.

Wouldn't that make penals the only squad in game which pays more then the actual reinforce formula indicates? You could argue merge, but that requires already another squad and they'd become even more squishy because of low defensive vet bonuses.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_620_OrdXoZaFPALinbH9Nm3itFonOHvI0yNI6psLck/edit?usp=sharing

note that the svt-40 are straight up superior to the volks k98k. While I don't think that's an issue itself, it still means that the penal should really be more expensive individually.

Access to faust doesn't really make up for the difference in dps, and both penal and volks get access to weapon upgrade. I would also rather give some versatility to the penal in exchange for a price increase to ~320 mp per squad and ~27 per man.

Have the satchel charge deal heavy engine damage at 50% hp. This still leave the penal build vulnerable to light tank rush, but give them additional use at late game.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_620_OrdXoZaFPALinbH9Nm3itFonOHvI0yNI6psLck/edit?usp=sharing

note that the svt-40 are straight up superior to the volks k98k. While I don't think that's an issue itself, it still means that the penal should really be more expensive individually.

Access to faust doesn't really make up for the difference in dps, and both penal and volks get access to weapon upgrade. I would also rather give some versatility to the penal in exchange for a price increase to ~320 mp per squad and ~27 per man. Have the satchel charge deal heavy engine damage at 50% hp.

I'm familiar with that link.
However comparing units on model per model basis is wrong.
Total squad DPS, units cost and units role should be compared.

And that leaves us with 250mp stock generalist infantry vs 300mp tech locked AI specialist.
Just compare grens to volks to see the impact of 10mp difference. And we have 50 mp and specialist vs generalist case here.

Considering that, its pretty much warranted why penals as they are now are in ok place with reinforce costs.
It seems low not because it is low, but because we have a 6 man squad here.

We have exactly the same issue with panzerfussiliers, where you have somewhat expensive squad, but extremely cheap and efficient models.