(may preview) Sturmpioneer Veterancy needs to be looked at

Knowing that allied can spam light / medium tanks pretty fast and in sufficient numbers, you are tempted to have a good AT solution right from the first 7 minutes. Now here comes the difficulty: - if you spam SPs and give them shrecks, that will be a fragile strategy, I personally tested this and SPs are not as survivable and spamable as volks. You may be overwhelmed by infantery and forced to retreat to often if you have an intelligent opponent - shrecked sturms are not that good vs infantry, no matter what anyone will say. You will gradualy lose map while hurting your finger pushin squad reinforcement key.
- if you want everything, meaning volks with stgs, faust use, SPs with shrecks, and so on, you will discover that your amo income will not be suited for that, so you will have to chose on what you will focus. Virtually, you have to decide if you want some strong volks or some AT SPs. You can't have both and make it count.

My thoughts exactly. I really don't see how you can spam SP's and have any kind of map control. MG34's come in too late since you need one truck on the field. I predict that SP's with schreks will be a complement to the raketen and no one sane will go more than 1-2 SP's anyway.

Stun grenade need fix.

@JohnnyB, CartoonVillain

First let's establish some common grounds for the conversation:

1. Is either of you arguing that the veterancy of schrecked Sturmpioneers is OK? I am specifically targetting Vet3 (since they don't fix stun nades), Vet4 and Vet5.
2. Are you arguing that it's fair that OKW gets single-schrecked Sturmpios, while OST has to sacrifice a more expensive squad (which is also currently squishier) to get mobile AT?

If you already agree with points #1 and #2, then you also agree that Sturmpioneer Veterancy needs to be reined-in. This is exactly what this thread is all about. There is nothing more to argue about!

Strategywise, let's leave early-game openings aside for now, and see the repercussions of Schreck Sturms to the late-game.

The Late Game

Congrats. You have survived until the late-game with OKW. Regardless of what opening strategy you used to get there, you will inevitably start suffering from squad-wipes. My question to you, is which squads will you spend your manpower on to replace your losses?

Volksgrenadiers:
They now take much longer to Vet. On top of that you also have to spend munitions on the stg-upgrade for an AI-only squad. You will want one on the field, for the fausts, but not more than that
Obersoldaten:
This is an exclussively AI-only squad. It kind of sucks at Vet0, and if the enemy is already Vetted, you are going to have a hard time.
Sturmpioneers:
Why would you build ANYTHING else? Slap the panzerschreck upgrade, and they are combat ready (vs mediums). You benefit from faster repairs too. Finally, it won't be long until they reach Vet3 (with the stun nades). When you get 3 Sturms at Vet3, that's when the fun begins.

Is there ANY reason you would ever NOT replace your losses with Sturmpioneers? Given that the critical mass will be eventually built up, can you at least not acknowledge the issues that their insane Veterancy will introduce?

Early game

The reasons why you might want to consider a Sturm-heavy opening are the following:
- You get better garrison-clearing right off the bat (grenades aren't unlocked until schrecks and MG34's become available)
- There is better synergy between Sturms and MG34 than Volks and MG34. Sure, the enemy can smoke your MG34 and then what; they can't go on melee vs Sturms.

This is essentially like OKW going back to the roots, when no incediary grenade was available, Sturms were more expensive and OKW had suppressing kubelwagen instead of the MG34.

My strat is the following:
- You need a kubel to make up for early capping. When it is time for your first push, you use the kubel to push enemy off the cover; vCoH-style. Sturms will then force a retreat
- You buy one Volksgrenadier just to have access to fausts. You do NOT upgrade schrecks until AFTER you have spotted an enemy vehicle. In the meantime, you keep the Volksgrenadier BEHIND your sturms, so that you always have a faust ready (so that the enemy can't surprise you with the vehicles)
- Immediately after upgrading either truck, queue up 2 MG34s. Your MG34s will now replace your kubel to support your pioneers pushing.
- AFTER the enemy has fielded a vehicle, you start upgrading SOME sturms with schrecks. You start firing potshots at the enemy vehicle. Unless absolutely necessary, try not to finish off the enemy vehicle. That way your vet will start ticking.
- When you have had enough schrecks, you can repurpose the Volksgrenadier as a meatshield (to lead/scout for assaults). You don't need their emergency-faust anymore.

That would solve a ton of issues with the game. The fact that Miragefla's mod doesn't contain a fix to such an obvious issue probably means that the fix is not achievable through mods (thus, we will never see this fixed).

Actually there is probably a fix. Low the XP value of vehicles to lets say half. Then apply an XP bonus to vehicles of 2. That would have infantry damaging vehicles gain half veterancy while tank would get full veterancy...

Tanks would twice xp of killing infantry but that would probably be a lesser issue. It would also help dedicated AI tank like luch, flame hetzer, KV-8...

Actually there is probably a fix. Low the XP value of vehicles to lets say half. Then apply an XP bonus to vehicles of 2. That would have infantry damaging vehicles gain half veterancy while tank would get full veterancy...

Tanks would twice xp of killing infantry but that would probably be a lesser issue. It would also help dedicated AI tank like luch, flame hetzer, KV-8...

That's not a bad idea actually!

However, I wonder how much veterancy tank destroyers would generate get by crushing infantry (M-10 & co) or targeting infantry with their MGs (Panther & co). Unless I can think of another cornercase, this looks like a lesser evil to what we are currently experiencing.

However, I wonder how much veterancy tank destroyers would generate get by crushing infantry (M-10 & co)...

Crushing as a tactic, imo should be more risk reward, currently is more reward than risk in some cases...it can be easily fixed by adding a slow or stun to infantry snares that do not cause engine damage or to hand held At weapon at close range.

Does not have to be allot just enough to make crushing a bit more difficult.

@JohnnyB, CartoonVillain

First let's establish some common grounds for the conversation:

1. Is either of you arguing that the veterancy of schrecked Sturmpioneers is OK? I am specifically targetting Vet3 (since they don't fix stun nades), Vet4 and Vet5.
2. Are you arguing that it's fair that OKW gets single-schrecked Sturmpios, while OST has to sacrifice a more expensive squad (which is also currently squishier) to get mobile AT?

If you already agree with points #1 and #2, then you also agree that Sturmpioneer Veterancy needs to be reined-in. This is exactly what this thread is all about. There is nothing more to argue about!

Strategywise, let's leave early-game openings aside for now, and see the repercussions of Schreck Sturms to the late-game.

I'm not arguing against a slower rate of gaining veterancy with SPs don't get me wrong.

The Late Game

Congrats. You have survived until the late-game with OKW. Regardless of what opening strategy you used to get there, you will inevitably start suffering from squad-wipes. My question to you, is which squads will you spend your manpower on to replace your losses?

Volksgrenadiers:
They now take much longer to Vet. On top of that you also have to spend munitions on the stg-upgrade for an AI-only squad. You will want one on the field, for the fausts, but not more than that
Obersoldaten:
This is an exclussively AI-only squad. It kind of sucks at Vet0, and if the enemy is already Vetted, you are going to have a hard time.
Sturmpioneers:
Why would you build ANYTHING else? Slap the panzerschreck upgrade, and they are combat ready (vs mediums). You benefit from faster repairs too. Finally, it won't be long until they reach Vet3 (with the stun nades). When you get 3 Sturms at Vet3, that's when the fun begins.

Is there ANY reason you would ever NOT replace your losses with Sturmpioneers? Given that the critical mass will be eventually built up, can you at least not acknowledge the issues that their insane Veterancy will introduce?

My answer for you: IT DEPENDS.
- I won't invest in Obersoldaten. I have by now alot of automatic weapons. Frankly, I am tempted to build zero Obersoldaten squads actualy.
- Volks. Yes, I am tempted to invest my MP to reinforce the squads IF I BASE my strategy on them, if enemy goes heavily on infantry spam. My vetted STG volks will be needed, that's for sure!
- Sturmpios. I can be tempted in investing MP to reinforce them, but again, IF I BASE my strategy on several sturms squads. However, it's tricky. They are more expensive, and the squad is fragile compared to volks, mainly due to the models' number. Remember, OKW problems relied in shrecks' carriers not srecks' performance.

Take note, depending on how game goes, I may have enough AT to make shreck investment not so worthy. And in such case STG volks are gold. Let me tell you something, from an OKW passionate perspective: In the new environement, it would be a mistake not to base your opening/strategy on several volks squads if you picked breaktrough, scavange, or special operations!

Early game

The reasons why you might want to consider a Sturm-heavy opening are the following:
- You get better garrison-clearing right off the bat (grenades aren't unlocked until schrecks and MG34's become available)
- There is better synergy between Sturms and MG34 than Volks and MG34. Sure, the enemy can smoke your MG34 and then what; they can't go on melee vs Sturms.

Or with your STG volks which is not a lesser problem and even cheaper!

This is essentially like OKW going back to the roots, when no incediary grenade was available, Sturms were more expensive and OKW had suppressing kubelwagen instead of the MG34.

My strat is the following:
- You need a kubel to make up for early capping. When it is time for your first push, you use the kubel to push enemy off the cover; vCoH-style. Sturms will then force a retreat

I am not using kubel. Not in the new patch. Why should I? I am the late game investment guy. In late game I will be behind with a small piece of land maybe but I will have a unit more that is reliable and can carry the game until the end.

- You buy one Volksgrenadier just to have access to fausts.

Nope. Not just for that

You do NOT upgrade schrecks until AFTER you have spotted an enemy vehicle. In the meantime, you keep the Volksgrenadier BEHIND your sturms, so that you always have a faust ready (so that the enemy can't surprise you with the vehicles)
- Immediately after upgrading either truck, queue up 2 MG34s. Your MG34s will now replace your kubel to support your pioneers pushing.

You may not even need MGs

- AFTER the enemy has fielded a vehicle, you start upgrading SOME sturms with schrecks. You start firing potshots at the enemy vehicle. Unless absolutely necessary, try not to finish off the enemy vehicle. That way your vet will start ticking.
- When you have had enough schrecks, you can repurpose the Volksgrenadier as a meatshield (to lead/scout for assaults). You don't need their emergency-faust anymore.

I understand now we have different views about how to use Volks and Sturms. But guess what. That is in fact the beauty of the patch. You can do anything you want with OKW!!

Allied whiners will never be satisfied until OKW has no Panzerschreks.

And we would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling Sturms.

But seriously, now that the Rwerfer is getting a buff, and with a faction that has Pumas, Jagdpanzers and Panthers, is there really need for such a powerful handheld AT?

Because PIATs are so awesome that you see PIAT blobs all the time absolutely wrecking poor German tanks, I mean, I can't COUNT the number of threads complaining about double PIAT blobs. And who can forget the (doctrinal) PTRS, the bane of the Kingtiger, crusher of Panzer IVs? /s

I prefer to see the schreks on a unit behind a tech structure. Not on Obers but on something new. By that there is no base infantry with schreks which is the problem to most people. Everyone can get a truck up before the first tank.

Actually, I wasn't aware of this, but in Miragefla's competitive edition mod, stun/concussion grenades have been changed to have the following effect:

Concussion and Stun Grenades
No longer stops units from retreating but will still slow the target momentarily when hit.

-Stun grenades now reduce speed rather than forcing units to the ground where they are unable to act.

That should address the (bug-borne) broken-ness of stun nades. However, it will also make them near-useless vs weapon teams/garrisons.

If schrecks remain on SPs, changing stun nades in that way is probably a good thing:
- It forces the player to also invest in Volks for garrison-clearing (thus, we move away from the "1 single unit that does everything" situation which was a feature of the Volksblob)
- Compared to PGrens, Sturms will have a disadvantage in that they have inferior grenades (even if PGren nades are overpriced).
- If OKW wants to invest in a schreck-heavy blob, they are making themselves extremely vulnerable to MG spam.

Shrek on Spios should disable the possibility of having minesweeper, and minesweeper should disable the possibility of having shrek.

Thats too much utility for Spios

A unit with great repair speed, best handheld AT, minesweepers, broken stun grenades, lays mines, strong barbwire and has STG 44s?

Must be a Relic Balanced™ unit.

Adding schreks to sturms does not fix either blobbing problems or the lack of a window for light tanks. What would help is the addition of a vet requirement for the schrek upgrade, making blobbing impractical and plenty of window for light vehicles. Maybe vet 2?

Also, (offtopic) if you are going to lock the medical truck's abilities behind an upgrade, why not make the medkits 35 (originally 30) muni and available at with at least 1 HT deployed?

All that is needed is a fix for stun nades.

Now OKW has non-doc snare, Non-doc best handheld weapon, non-doc MG, best heavy tank and best non-doc TD...

Relic is love, OKW is life......

Shrek on Spios should disable the possibility of having minesweeper, and minesweeper should disable the possibility of having shrek.

Thats too much utility for Spios

That, fixing stun grenades and lower the veterancy gaining rate should do the trick for SPs.

I have not tried the schrecks on SPs so far, but as far as i know the veterancy problem for volks were related with the relatively cheap volks squad price compared to the target vehicles prices they damaged.

I mean volks squad was 250, SPs are 300 MP. (almost like the Pgrens)... i dont think they accumulate veterancy levels faster then RE with bazookas. Or do they?

RE with zooks only can figth armor......spios with those nades and stgs and shrecks can figth both inf and armor....

anyway, I think vet for spios is quite better than vet for RE...

Well, that is what a noob seems to see when comparing ZOOKS RE and shrecked spios....surely it is plain wrong.

The Panzershreck upgrade should apply a veterancy speed reduction (received_experience_squad_modifier) of %50 increased XP requirement.



BUT then, they should be able to put away the shreck, since there is no vet cheat anymore. You can't build millions of 300 MP engineers for different tasks.