Fixing The Issues With Vet 3 Infantry Sections

At vet 3 Infantry Sections (IS) receive a 20% accuracy bonus, 20% cooldown reduction and two Scoped Lee-Enfields (SLE) which are slightly better than the standard IS Lee-Enfield. The problem with this is that the SLEs are implemented as slot items, like the Bren or Grenadier MG42.

While they can't be dropped and don't take up slots on their own (so IS can still dual-equip Brens) they both increase the risk that weapon upgrades will drop and make IS DPS unreliable once they start to lose models. Let's look at why:

When a model is killed, any slot item (weapon upgrade) that model is carrying is passed to any model in the squad that doesn't have a slot item equipped. If there are no other models without slot items, the item has a chance to drop (usually about 33%). If the item doesn't drop, it is stored until the squad is reinforced to have enough members to equip it.

Since IS have up to four slot items (two SLEs, two Brens/PIATs) they can drop items when reduced to less than four members (most squads start when reduced to less than one or two). Added to this, if a model carrying a Bren dies and there are no models without slot items, the Bren won't be equipped. Since the SLE has roughly 7/12 the long-range DPS of the Bren, IS squads lose a significant portion of their total DPS when Brens can't be passed on.

Thankfully, since the patch to veterancy, it is actually fairly easy to fix. The explanation of how it's done requires a bit of modding knowledge but, in general terms, I'm simply replacing all of the standard Lee-Enfields with SLEs when IS squads reach vet 3.

Since equipping the full squad with SLEs increases the DPS bonus from 6/7.5%-15% the SLE might need adjustment but a five-man dual-Bren squad will have its DPS increased by only about 2% with these changes.

Let's get into the modding:



This is what the vet 3 bonus looks like initially. The first thing to do is to delete the slot_item_add actions. Then, you want to add an add_weapon action under squad_entity_actions that adds the SLE to hardpoint_01. Make sure you get the origin and heading right!

From here, you want to add a requirement_action with the requirement required_not: required_any_in_list: required_active_weapon and simply have an active_weapon entry for the Tommy Bren, Sapper Vickers K, PIAT and Boys AT Rifle. Finally, move the apply_modifiers action to the bottom for neatness.

Here's how the entries should look when you're done:


Here's an expanded view:


Note that while I've got a Sapper Bren entry in these pictures, you should have the Tommy Bren. I use the same mod to test a lot of things.

Once you're done, simply adjust the SLEs to your liking.

EDIT: Actually, I have two questions, regarding the modifications you propose:
1. What happens to the squad/squadmember if the Tommies happen to be carrying a weapon not in your exception list (e.g., a pilfered LMG42) when they reach Vet3
2. After the squad has reached Vet3, what happens if you try to recrew an abandoned team weapon with them (do they retain the original Enfield, or does the SLE carry along?)

Bravo

That's a nice, thorough and lazy (i.e., attractively easy to implement) approach that will fix the issue.

Here are some other equally-lazy options:
1. Completely remove SLE's from the game (if necessary, counteract with a small stats bonus)
2. Reduce the number of awarded SLE's to ONE, and buff its performance (that way, the SLE causing slot items to drop becomes justified)

Implementing weapon priorities would be the more thorough way to solve this

Weapons should be given priorities, so that higher-priority weapons overwrite lower-priority ones. I would envision the following 3 priority classes (from highest to lowest):
- Minesweepers
- Slot items (e.g., LMG42, Brens, Schrecks)
- Non-droppable weapons (e.g., G43's, PPSH, Scoped Lee-Enfield)

This would also solve a host of other issues in other squads in the game (e.g., G43 & Schrecks upgrade turning PGrens into pinatas, etc).

I am not a modder, but I suspect this might involve going deeper than the mod engine. For the reasons outlined in Svanh's signature, things might never be implemented that way.

PS: In case somebody suggests this: Simply reducing the chance for Tommies to drop weapons (in the same way that Guards were modified), will definitely not solve the problem. The whole crux of the problem is the following:

If the item doesn't drop, it is stored until the squad is reinforced to have enough members to equip it.

i.e., Tommies performance becomes extremely unreliable at Vet3, even if they don't drop their weapons.

EDIT: Actually, I have two questions, regarding the modifications you propose:
1. What happens to the squad/squadmember if the Tommies happen to be carrying a weapon not in your exception list (e.g., a pilfered LMG42) when they reach Vet3
2. After the squad has reached Vet3, what happens if you try to recrew an abandoned team weapon with them (do they retain the original Enfield, or does the SLE carry along?)

If a slot item isn't on the exception list, the model carrying that item switches to the SLE. The slot item will be equipped on another model as soon as the model that was using it dies but until then you have a slot that's occupied but unusable. Simply adding the droppable slot items to the list avoids this.

I haven't actually tested the effect on re-crewed weapons (and can't at the moment) but I'd assume that the initial recrewing models would have SLEs but reinforced ones wouldn't because the weapon team doesn't have the vet bonus that adds them.

I haven't found a way to set weapon priorities yet, unfortunately. It would be the best solution but it will probably require some work on Relic's part.

I think the two extra scoped enfield is actually there to discourage people from using double bren gun, by making it easier to drop them.

of course, it's possible to just prevent the tommy from buying two bren in the first place. I've manage to code the weapon rack to only allow one bren per squad, but at the same time allow the tommies to replace any lost bren.

This Happens for the pathfinders as well, they drop bars like there's no tomorrow. Is this a bug? If so has this been reported in the bugs section?

This Happens for the pathfinders as well, they drop bars like there's no tomorrow. Is this a bug? If so has this been reported in the bugs section?

their sniper garand count as heavy weapon.

I think the two extra scoped enfield is actually there to discourage people from using double bren gun, by making it easier to drop them.

That seems more like seeing a pattern where there isn't one. It would be one of the worst solutions Relic could think of, if so.

of course, it's possible to just prevent the tommy from buying two bren in the first place. I've manage to code the weapon rack to only allow one bren per squad, but at the same time allow the tommies to replace any lost bren.

The problem with that is that the Brens are probably tuned to be used in pairs. The LMG42, for example, has more long-range DPS than the Tommy Bren both absolutely and as a percentage increase in squad DPS (LMG42: ~+50%, Bren: ~+25%).

Added to this, the Sapper Bren is straight better than the Tommy Bren. I'm sure you've already limited Brens for Royal Engineers but if you hadn't, they would completely overshadow Infantry Sections.

This Happens for the pathfinders as well, they drop bars like there's no tomorrow. Is this a bug? If so has this been reported in the bugs section?

I think Pathfinders have a single sniper rifle as a slot item so they would drop BARs when reduced to less than three models. Unfortunately, you couldn't use the solution in the OP because they are only intended to have one sniper rifle.

It's not a bug in that the game is working as intended. For Infantry Sections, it's a serious balance issue given that they're supposed to use Brens to scale.

The problem with that is that the Brens are probably tuned to be used in pairs. The LMG42, for example, has more long-range DPS than the Tommy Bren both absolutely and as a percentage increase in squad DPS (LMG42: ~+50%, Bren: ~+25%).

Does that include the cover bonus?

Does that include the cover bonus?

Yes. You can tell (if you check the link) because a Tommy Bren would have a reload time of more than eleven seconds out of cover.

Stats below:

Weapon	DPS (Near/Far)
Lee-Enfield	5.22/3.08
Tommy Bren	5.90/6.34
Grenadier Kar98K	6.22/2.41
Grenadier LMG42	7.66/7.19

Lee-Enfield
Tommy Bren
Grenadier Kar98K
Grenadier LMG42

Yes. You can tell (if you check the link) because a Tommy Bren would have a reload time of more than eleven seconds out of cover.

Stats below:

Weapon	DPS (Near/Far)
Lee-Enfield	5.22/3.08
Tommy Bren	5.90/6.34
Grenadier Kar98K	6.22/2.41
Grenadier LMG42	7.66/7.19

Lee-Enfield
Tommy Bren
Grenadier Kar98K
Grenadier LMG42

Oh, well, Firesparks seems to think the DPS while in cover is higher than that. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=1496803838

Oh, well, Firesparks seems to think the DPS while in cover is higher than that. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=1496803838

I've only taken the stats off the website I linked, but it looks like a difference in methodology to me. You can see that both the Kar98K and Lee-Enfield DPS figures on Firesparks' sheet are less than the ones I posted and the LMG42 and Tommy Bren DPS figures are larger than the ones I posted.

Without looking at the formulas, we can't be sure which one is correct.

EDIT: Looking at Firesparks' stats, we end up with the Grenadier LMG42 increasing squad DPS by ~75% and the (in-cover) Tommy Bren increasing squad DPS by ~43%.

I would also like to point out that this problem occurs with con PPSHs and g43s.

I've only taken the stats off the website I linked, but it looks like a difference in methodology to me. You can see that both the Kar98K and Lee-Enfield DPS figures on Firesparks' sheet are less than the ones I posted and the LMG42 and Tommy Bren DPS figures are larger than the ones I posted.

Without looking at the formulas, we can't be sure which one is correct.

EDIT: Looking at Firesparks' stats, we end up with the Grenadier LMG42 increasing squad DPS by ~75% and the (in-cover) Tommy Bren increasing squad DPS by ~43%.

the forumla I used is from relic's mod studio. coh2.hu obviously use a different formula.

That seems more like seeing a pattern where there isn't one. It would be one of the worst solutions Relic could think of, if so.

those two scoped enfield are the biggest reason why british player doesn't use double bren gun, regardless of whether this was the intent.

"fixing" the drop issue is just going to lead to british lmg blob. A full size double bren tommies squad is going to be have obersoldaten level of firepower.

here's a 5 men tommies with 2 bren in cover:
27.7319|28.2216|28.1070|28.1249|28.2449|28.4427|28.1084|27.4182

here's ober with the mg34:
32.3830|31.5700|30.9140|30.0949|29.3772|28.7576|27.4517|25.934835

the forumla I used is from relic's mod studio. coh2.hu obviously use a different formula.


those two scoped enfield are the biggest reason why british player doesn't use double bren gun, regardless of whether this was the intent.

"fixing" the drop issue is just going to lead to british lmg blob. A full size double bren tommies squad is going to be have obersoldaten level of firepower.

here's a 5 men tommies with 2 bren in cover:
27.7319|28.2216|28.1070|28.1249|28.2449|28.4427|28.1084|27.4182

here's ober with the mg34:
32.3830|31.5700|30.9140|30.0949|29.3772|28.7576|27.4517|25.934835

You may not approve, but Infantry Sections eventually scaling into Obersoldaten through side/weapon upgrades and veterancy is exactly how UKF is designed. Look at the initial reinforcement cost and veterancy bonuses for Infantry Sections (35mp reinforce, +40% accuracy, -20% cooldown, two SLEs, 0.528 received accuracy, +10 sight in cover etc.).

I also don't share your apprehensions about dual-Bren Infantry Section blobs. Assuming you have four Infantry Sections (which is the minimum for a real blob), you're out 330/120/12.5/8 (manpower/munitions/fuel/pop) per squad (without including either healing or artillery upgrades) for a total of 1320/480/50/32 spent only on stationary long-range anti-infantry specialists. Even without the exploitable (no real on-the-move DPS, weak up close, easily wiped by indirect fire because of their cover dependence) weaknesses of Infantry Sections, that level of spending is ruinous especially in such a narrow role.

To put this in perspective, you can buy four Obersoldaten squads with LMGs for 1600/240/40 (manpower/munitions/pop) which can fire on the move, have comparable utility, and scale better. You've compared the DPS of a vet 3, five-man, dual-Bren Infantry Section to a vet 0 LMG34 Obersoldaten, which is fair in a timing sense, but not exactly representative when vet 3 Obersoldaten have better received accuracy, cooldown and accuracy bonuses.

You would be right to argue that sustaining four Obersoldaten squads is also ruinous (40mp per lost model) but that's the price of using a blob with Obersoldaten-level firepower (high up-front cost, high sustain or obvious weaknesses). An efficient UKF player will use Infantry Sections like OKW uses Obersoldaten: one to three to provide firepower, screened with cheap units (Volksgrenadiers or Royal Engineers).

Either way, there are far better ways of balancing Infantry Sections than relying on bugs.

I would also like to point out that this problem occurs with con PPSHs and g43s.

And why it shouldn't? Or why you even believe its a problem for these weapons?
Both of them are doctrinal upgrades, not stock weapons or part of units vet.

their sniper garand count as heavy weapon.

If this was the case, then they would not be able to pick up more weapons unless of course they have 4 weapon slots, which seems unlikely, but if the stats could be procured for this then I'd believe the statement.

I think Pathfinders have a single sniper rifle as a slot item so they would drop BARs when reduced to less than three models. Unfortunately, you couldn't use the solution in the OP because they are only intended to have one sniper rifle.

It's not a bug in that the game is working as intended. For Infantry Sections, it's a serious balance issue given that they're supposed to use Brens to scale.

It happens for all units that have a non-droppable upgrade: G43 grens, PPSH cons, G43 Storms, Tommies, Pathfinders and so forth. I don't think it is working as intended. It resembles the old Guards who dropped weapons left and right, and that was fixed(to some extent). I doubt that all these units should have a higher drop rate than other units.

If this was the case, then they would not be able to pick up more weapons unless of course they have 4 weapon slots, which seems unlikely, but if the stats could be procured for this then I'd believe the statement.



It happens for all units that have a non-droppable upgrade: G43 grens, PPSH cons, G43 Storms, Tommies, Pathfinders and so forth. I don't think it is working as intended. It resembles the old Guards who dropped weapons left and right, and that was fixed(to some extent). I doubt that all these units should have a higher drop rate than other units.

note: heavy weapon here refer to stuff like the ppsh, lmg42, PTRS, and minesweeper

there's two "size" when it comes to heavy weapon, slot item size and number of model.

Most squad have a slot item size of 2. Combined with the size of 1 on most heavy weapon, this mean they can equip two heavy weapon. Note that stuff like the garand sniper and minesweeper have a size of 0, meaning they don't affect the squad from picking up weapon off the rack or off the ground.

what affect drop rate is number of model in a squad. When a model carrying a heavy weapon die, his weapon get passed to the next member that's not using a heavy weapon. If everyone else is carrying a heavy weapon (or the weapon carrier was the last member of the squad), the recently dead's heavy weapon have to roll to see if it will drop on the ground.

Show Spoiler

I do not approve of infantry section scaling onto ober level. I barely approve ober's insanely high dps either, but in practice they are tolerable.

personally I would remove the scoped enfield but limit the bren to one per squad. It's possible to change the weapon rack to disallow dual bren but admit PIAT + bren. Dual bren from ground pick up is fine since it's spoils of war.

Are you sure this is an unintended behavior? I mean those slots are no longer available, and thats why LMGs cannot be passed. IS squad received actual weapons on vet3, not just plain buff on stats.

I'm sure Cuddles confirmed it was in their database as a bug.

And why it shouldn't? Or why you even believe its a problem for these weapons?
Both of them are doctrinal upgrades, not stock weapons or part of units vet.

You don't see a problem with a bug making picked up weapons drop much more frequently than they should?