'Urban Assault Doctrine' and 'Not One Step Back Tactics'

Hello and Welcome! I just recently made a mod that brought back some old scrapped commanders that made it through the development stage, but never were able to see the light. I'd like to find out your opinions about these commanders, and how they would affect the game if they were available to the public. The commanders that I have made available in-game includes the 'Urban Assault Doctrine' and 'Not One Step Back Tactics.' These commanders have been changed slightly in attempt to balance them to be more up-to-date without removing any key features/abilities. I've also fixed many errors in the Help/Extra/Brief texts that come in them. For the most part, these are still the same ol' scrapped commanders that everyone has dreamed of receiving. Here is an outline of the commanders:



I. Wehrmacht

A. 'Urban Assault Doctrine'

1. [0 CP] Forward Supply Station
a. This ability converts a friendly occupied building into a forward supply station
b. Costs 300 Manpower, 30 Fuel (150 Manpower originally).
c. Units can retreat to the forward supply station.

2. [1 CP] Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers
a. This ability dispatches a 5-man squad of Panzergrenadiers armed with 3x MP40s, 2x
Flamethrowers.
b. Costs 360 Manpower.

3. [2 CP] (Passive) Incendiary Mortar Barrage
a. This passive ability allows mortar squads to fire a barrage using incendiary rounds.
b. Costs 45 Munitions per barrage.

4. [3 CP] Munitions Blitz
a. This ability allows you to immedietly recieve 100 Munitions (75 Originally), but you loose
400 Manpower (160 Originally) over 4 minutes.
b. Costs nothing initially.
c. Cannot use multiple Munitions Blitzs at once (Originally you could use 4 at a time).

5. [12 CP] Strategic Bombing
a. This ability sends multiple bombers to flatten an area, but they are very inaccurate (Very similar to
the British's 'Air Superiority' ability.)

II. Soviet Union

A. 'Not One Step Back Tactics'

1. [0 CP] (Passive) No Retreat, No Surrender!
a. This passive ability increases manpower income, and infantry production speed, but disables
retreating.

2. [1 CP] Commissar Squad
a. This ability dispatches a Commisar Squad that can inspire nearby infantry.
b. Costs 200 Manpower (120 Originally)

3. [3 CP] Manpower Blitz
a. This ability allows you to immedietly recieve 500 Manpower, but you loose 250 Manpower
(200 Originally) over 5 minutes.
b. Costs 75 Munitions (65 Originally) and 50 Fuel (40 Originally.)
c. Cannot use multiple Manpower Blitzs at once (Originally you could use 4 at a time.)

4. [6 CP] Hold The Line!
a. This ability gives all soviet infantry large defensive and offensive buffs, but they cannot move
while active.
b. Costs nothing.

5. [8 CP] Scorched Earth Policy
a. This ability bombards enemies in all friendly territory with multiple rockets (Similar to Sector
Assault, except all friendly territories instead of just one.)
b. Costs 200 Munitions.


Video Showcase (Many thanks to EmpireErwinRommel's channel!)



In-game Screenshots:










Access Mod:
The Forgotten Commanders Mod

How To Use:
1. Subscribe to this workshop item.
2. Choose the faction that has one of the included commanders.
3. Start a custom match.
4. Select 'The Forgotten Commanders' Mod in the tuning options.
5. Unequip all commanders in loadout (due to stacking abilities.)
6. Start the match.
7. Click on your factions Main HQ.
8. Research the commander you want to use.

Once again, thanks to EmpireErwinRommel (Show Spoiler) for providing a video showing off the abilties in the commanders!

Thank you for reading this, and have a good day!
~Karbinder J. Schultz

2 flamethrowers on Panzergrenadiers.
Locked.

For not one step back I think they should add some sort of targeted freindly retreat ability to the commissar squads. If you run into any mg or bunker you are just fucked, they get suppressed and just die unless you push off the mg with something else. Flackhalftrack is instarape.

2 flamethrowers on Panzergrenadiers.
Locked.

With armor upgrade /thread

PD: i'll like to see them after they get properly balanced.

2 flamethrowers on Panzergrenadiers

With armor upgrade

Meh, I only fixed the stuff that was way too overpowered for the fabric of time and space to handle, like trading 160 manpower for 75 munitions.

wow thanks for responding to my request!

BTW for testing purposes you mind making an un-changed, original version for comparative testing purposes?

BTW for testing purposes you mind making an un-changed, original version for comparative testing purposes?

Maybe, but it's really ugly. 120 Manpower for an officer, 2000 manpower in 20 seconds... ugh. It also makes maxim spam the definition of the phrase 'scared shitless.'

Anyone have trouble with this mod? doesn't seem to give the option at HQ. Followed the instructions to the letter

Anyone have trouble with this mod? doesn't seem to give the option at HQ. Followed the instructions to the letter

Have you made sure that you're not running any special game-modes? I know it works in the default game-modes and the cheats mod game-modes. Otherwise I'd assume that you need to re-download the mod without running the game during the download. If none of those work, I have no idea what is the problem.

At least 3 of 5 abilities in USSR commander should be changed because of:
1. Some patches ago Relic remove all resourse manipulations. (That's why manpower blitz should be changed)
2. It is breaking one of the main mechanic in the game, and it is sooooo stereotyped (i am talking about forbidden retreat for soviet infantry). This game already have enough stereotypes about Red Army.
3. USSR already have one doctrine ability, which immobolizing infantry - Hit the dirt. And this ability useless. Germans vechicle will just crush all you infantry without any problems (Here i am talking about Hold the Line! ability)

Edit: i have looked at German commander, he need some changes too:
1. Change Munition Blitz.
2. No need in incerdinary ammo for mortar, Wehrmacht already have them with SdKfz 250 Mortar Halftruck.
3. Assault Panzergrenadiers can be changed on Assault package for Panzergrenadiers which give all abilities from Assault Panzergrenadiers, but with 1 Flamethrower.

At least 3 of 5 abilities in USSR commander should be changed because of:
1. Some patches ago Relic remove all resourse manipulations. (That's why manpower blitz should be changed)
2. It is breaking one of the main mechanic in the game, and it is sooooo stereotyped (i am talking about forbidden retreat for soviet infantry). This game already have enough stereotypes about Red Army.
3. USSR already have one doctrine ability, which immobolizing infantry - Hit the dirt. And this ability useless. Germans vechicle will just crush all you infantry without any problems (Here i am talking about Hold the Line! ability)

Edit: i have looked at German commander, he need some changes too:
1. Change Munition Blitz.
2. No need in incerdinary ammo for mortar, Wehrmacht already have them with SdKfz 250 Mortar Halftruck.
3. Assault Panzergrenadiers can be changed on Assault package for Panzergrenadiers which give all abilities from Assault Panzergrenadiers, but with 1 Flamethrower.

Sorry if you are offended by these stereotypes, but Relic was the one who created these abilities, not me. For the resource manipulation, I decided to not remove it to try to give everyone a better look at what these commanders really are like. I did change a few things on them to keep it from being completely game breaking (like I said indirectly on the main post), but I didn't want to remove any abilities, because it wouldn't correctly display the commanders (and I really don't want to take more time to replace them.) Hit the dirt, in my opinion, is still a very good ability for infantry vs infantry combat, and even though tanks can simply run them all over, AT guns, and other AT weaponry still work, so it isn't as bad as you may think in most situations. The incendiary ammo for the Sdkfz 250 Mortar Half-track isn't a good reason to remove this, because the 250 Half-track is doctrinal to other commanders, not to the base faction. Finally, for your proposed change to the Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers, I think it's the same thing as saying Assault Grenadiers should become an upgrade on normal Grenadiers.

Have a good day!
~Hans G. Schultz

Sorry if you are offended by these stereotypes, but Relic was the one who created these abilities, not me. For the resource manipulation, I decided to not remove it to try to give everyone a better look at what these commanders really are like. I did change a few things on them to keep it from being completely game breaking (like I said indirectly on the main post), but I didn't want to remove any abilities, because it wouldn't correctly display the commanders (and I really don't want to take more time to replace them.) Hit the dirt, in my opinion, is still a very good ability for infantry vs infantry combat, and even though tanks can simply run them all over, AT guns, and other AT weaponry still work, so it isn't as bad as you may think in most situations. The incendiary ammo for the Sdkfz 250 Mortar Half-track isn't a good reason to remove this, because the 250 Half-track is doctrinal to other commanders, not to the base faction. Finally, for your proposed change to the Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers, I think it's the same thing as saying Assault Grenadiers should become an upgrade on normal Grenadiers.

Have a good day!
~Hans G. Schultz

I know, that these commanders leaked more than year ago, but some things in CoH were changed and conception of these commanders is outdated now. That what i want to say.
P.S. I like your idea make Assault Grenadiers an upgrade for Grenadiers.
P.S. 2. Mortar halftruck not only in 1 doctrine. Why not add it to this doctrine instead of incendinary shots for mortar?

Added some screenshots for those who don't have enough time to get the mod.

I. Wehrmacht

A. 'Urban Assault Doctrine'

1. [0 CP] Forward Supply Station
a. This ability converts a friendly occupied building into a forward supply
station
b. Costs 150 Manpower, 30 Fuel.
c. Units can retreat to the forward supply station.

2. [1 CP] Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers
a. This ability dispatches a 5-man squad of Panzergrenadiers armed with 3x MP40s,
2x Flamethrowers.
b. Costs 360 Manpower.

3. [2 CP] (Passive) Incendiary Mortar Barrage
a. This passive ability allows mortar squads to fire a barrage using incendiary
rounds.
b. Costs 45 Munitions per barrage.

4. [3 CP] Munitions Blitz
a. This ability allows you to immedietly recieve 100 Munitions (75 Originally),
but you loose
400 Manpower (160 Originally) over 4 minutes.
b. Costs nothing initially.
c. Cannot use multiple Munitions Blitzs at once (Originally you could use 4 at a
time).

5. [12 CP] Strategic Bombing
a. This ability sends multiple bombers to flatten an area, but they are very
inaccurate (Very similar to the British's 'Air Superiority' ability.)

II. Soviet Union

A. 'Not One Step Back Tactics'

1. [0 CP] (Passive) No Retreat, No Surrender!
a. This passive ability increases manpower income, and infantry production speed,
but disables retreating. (I nerfed the resource income and infantry build speed
bonuses due to instantly winning the game .)

2. [1 CP] Commissar Squad
a. This ability dispatches a Commisar Squad that can inspire nearby infantry.
b. Costs 280 Manpower (120 Originally)

3. [3 CP] Manpower Blitz
a. This ability allows you to immedietly recieve 500 Manpower, but you loose 500
Manpower
(200 Originally) over 5 minutes.
b. Costs 75 Munitions (65 Originally) and 75 Fuel (40 Originally.)
c. Cannot use multiple Manpower Blitzs at once (Originally you could use 4 at a
time.)

4. [6 CP] Hold The Line!
a. This ability gives all soviet infantry large defensive and offensive buffs, but
they cannot move while active.
b. Costs nothing.

5. [8 CP] Scorched Earth Policy
a. This ability bombards enemies in all friendly territory with multiple rockets
(Similar to Sector Assault, except all friendly territories instead of just one.)
b. Costs 200 Munitions.

Thank you for putting in the effort to make this.

From a balance perspective, I have concerns about a few of the abilities:

- Manpower/Munitions Blitz still don't look particularly balanced, especially Munitions Blitz (trading manpower for munitions?). I'd prefer to see something like 400 manpower/100 munitions now for 600 manpower/150 munitions less over five minutes (with a five-minute recharge time) so there's a more obvious trade-off to using the abilities.

- No Retreat, No Surrender is not an ability that really works in CoH2, given its focus on unit preservation. If you were going to balance it, I'd make it a toggle ability. Looking at the original ability in the Attribute Editor, the build time multipliers were pretty ridiculous (0.1) but the manpower bonus was fairly negligible (only 6.24 more manpower per minute?).

- Hold the Line has the same issues as No Retreat, No Surrender. Locking all your infantry in place for 30 seconds, regardless of how powerful the bonuses are, doesn't work all that well with current game mechanics. Replacing this with Hit The Dirt, and making Hit The Dirt apply to all Soviet infantry might be better.

- Scorched Earth Policy looks completely ridiculous, based on how it's set up in the AE. It could end up like the UKF Overwatch in the Royal Artillery Regiment but I'll need to test it first.

Again, thank you for making this!

They were scrapped for a reason.

Not being able to retreat means you will instantly lose to suppresson. We used to play games in DoW2 1v1 that were "No retreat allowed!" and it was 100% whoever suppressed the other guy won. The only way this works is if the passive also buffed suppression resistance significantly.

Likewise, Wehrmacht with a forward retreat point introduces some balance issues because of how potent their support weapons and defensive structures are. Especially for 150/30 lol.

the 5 armour double flamethrower pgs still get pooped on by sim city l2p

change pzgren with assault gren

@CrazyPasha probably the reason why it was cut was one or more of the criticisms you point out.

If I were to change the commanders, I guess it be like:

Forward Supply Station:
Unchanged

Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers:
Instead of Panzergrenadiers they are Assault Grenadiers (same weapons, same squad size) with 1-2 flamethrowers and the usual sprint + grenade assault abilities. The armour upgrade I don't think is really necessary if they have large squad size and modest manpower cost and early CP unlock.

Incendiary Mortar Barrage:
Being an unlock for only one particular unit doesn't feel right to me, I'd rather it be a combination passive like being able to give Incendiary grenades to infantry squads, or at least giving both mortar and panzerwerfer incendiary attacks. Or more simply give it mortar halftrack; or even Stuka Incendiary Run. But I think the original idea behind this commander was that it has no abilities copied from other commanders since people disliked so many rehashed commander combos (understandable since many of them were bad, but that's a problem of results and lack of new additions, not the concept).

Munitions Blitz:
This was clearly an attempt to re-make Redistribute Resources from Fuel->Muni to Manpower-> Muni, and the result is pretty underwhelming. Surely just doing Luftwaffe Supply Drop or even Opel Blitz Truck would have accomplished the goal of resource manipulation well enough? Would be even more versatile as it's not limited to munitions but can also grant more fuel.

Strategic Bombing:
I can't help but feel like this ability is where Relic guys just ran out of ideas and just opted for an even more unrealistic off-map barrage. Railway Artillery would have suited this role, and given the rather long delay between the time flares are thrown down and bombers fly in to drop at large scatter, this ability actually seems less useful than it looks.

As for the Soviet Commander it is apparent it's not just broken but very wonky design that subverts everything CoH2 is about:

No Retreat, No Surrender!:
Disables retreat (permanently) but increases manpower and training speeds. There are already mechanics found in this game that can simulate this style of gameplay with more finesse and with less imbalance. In Ardennes Assault there is an ability for Officer squads to halt all retreating squads, for example; a Commissar unit could provide that ability, which would be much more flexible and allow for balance tweaks (re long cooldown time so you don't spam retreat prevention). That this ability also increases manpower income means Manpower Blitz is redundant.


Commissar Squad:
This commander was made before WFA, so it looks like Sturm Offizier inherited much of the design characteristics, whereas instead of pinning it and nearby squads retreat when officer dies. If I were to redo this unit I'd say it just grants forward retreat point and grant bonuses to nearby infantry when it or they are in combat; I can't say there's really more I have in mind that would make it stand out from the other officer unit types in the game besides the usual aura-support caster. I recommend FRP only on the basis that Soviets have no such capability, and Urban Assault has one. This would also justify the squad's low manpower cost as well as it's relatively lack of combat efficiency: it's a squad that helps your army rather than a squad that can fight- we actually don't have that in the weakest infantry in this game, besides Medics.

Manpower Blitz:
Definitely one of the reasons why this commander was cut, manpower equivalent to the now cut Redistribute Resources, and as mentioned stacked with the first ability. If anything this should be similar to the new Recoup Losses ability for OKW, which does the job much better since it has active duration, munitions cost and cooldown, plus it only works when you actually lose men.

Hold The Line!:
The drawbacks to this ability are negated by the two manpower abilities that can pump out infantry to make up for any losses your troops incur. This should instead be something like gaining much better defensive bonuses, but only when the unit(s) are in cover or garrisoned. This promotes and rewards smart gameplay that most competent players would try to utilize anyways; this can also be an individual ability rather that a global one, so micromanagement of units as well as resources would be key for being a factor in winning.

Scorched Earth Policy:
Ability seems more suitable to the style of UKF off-maps, instead of multiple sectors, this ability rquires you to choose a specific one.

II. Soviet Union

A. 'Not One Step Back Tactics'

1. [0 CP] (Passive) No Retreat, No Surrender!
a. This passive ability increases manpower income, and infantry production speed,
but disables retreating. (I nerfed the resource income and infantry build speed
bonuses due to instantly winning the game .)

This is the most interesting ability of all. What do you do when your squad gets pinned by MG fire? That´s a squad out of the game for you. And how big was the additional manpower income before you nerfed it and afterwards? This ability is hard to balance. Versus Ostheer I imagine it being way less effective than versus OKW simply due to the lack of suppression tools. Though the Flak HT might work wonders.

Well, complaints against Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers have caught my attention, and I'll look into it. Somebody said they get 5 armor? (lol) I'd just replace that with the shock troops' armor values of 1.5 then add a bit less received accuracy for their upgrade bonuses.

This is the most interesting ability of all. What do you do when your squad gets pinned by MG fire? That´s a squad out of the game for you. And how big was the additional manpower income before you nerfed it and afterwards? This ability is hard to balance. Versus Ostheer I imagine it being way less effective than versus OKW simply due to the lack of suppression tools. Though the Flak HT might work wonders.

Also, they could out suppress their suppressor with maxim spam. It was quite interesting. +50 Manpower income permanently and the -90% build speed really screwed things up with balance. Not to mention, with the old Manpower blitz, you could gain 2000 manpower immediately, if you had what the fuel and munitions costed, which was much lower before.

Finally, I'll add a fuel income penalty (Not an initial cost to keep it from being a more expensive version of the ol' Munitions to fuel transfer) for the Munitions Blitz. They can still survive without tanks, thanks to their amazing initial tech buildings, and it has been demonstrated that it works by the amount of fuel people dumped on Troop Training while that was available.