Ostheer in a bad spot ?

The MG from tier 0 is clearly intended to get them out as an early unit, which was sometimes the case before that anyway, given how quickly T1 can be put up. Its risky but not inherently problematic.

Theoretically grens can build cover in the form of bunkers. If you don't intend, or can't yet afford, to put an MG upgrade in, you can still garrison it with a gren or MG. But it costs three times as much as the fairly similar Brit trench, and I'm not sure if, apart from the upgradeability, it's any stronger. Either way, I've never seen bunkers used in this manner.

How about making bunkers for 50MP but all upgrades would cost 100MP + 60ammo.

A look at infantry veterancy (and infantry play in general) would be good for Ostheer. Teching costs for T4 also need some adjustment.

How are the following ideas?

- Infantry Medkits now heal 80 health over 10 seconds (previously 40 over 10)
- Infantry Medkits no longer cost munitions

This would give Ostheer quick healing independent of a bunker and allow Grenadiers, Pioneers and Osttruppen to better support weapon teams and Panzergrenadiers.

- Panzergrenadiers vet 1 now allows them to detect enemies in the FOW (same 90 range as Tank Hunter IS, all enemy units)
- Panzergrenadiers no longer have Infantry Medkits
- Panzergrenadiers' vet 2 received accuracy bonus split in two; Half is now given at vet 1 (0.84^2 = ~0.71)

These changes would make it easier to flank with and properly position Panzergrenadiers as well as making their veterancy pay off slightly earlier. The range on the detection probably needs some adjustment.

- T3 tech cost increased from 100/45 to 100/95
- T3 Building cost reduced from 260/75 to 150/25
- T4 building cost reduced from 260/75 to 150/25
- T4 tech cost increased from 100/45 to 210/45

By moving most of the T3 teching cost into the research, T4 arrives fifty fuel earlier if you go T3 without affecting the timing of T4.

Pioneers could also have their Medkit ability replaced with a second repair bonus.

My main gripes with Ostheer are:

- 4 man grenadier squads suffer too much from RNG wipes from explosive weapons. It's much easier to get a nice core of vet3 main infantry with the other factions than it is with Ostheer. I think grens should be 5 man squads instead of 4 man squads, with appropriate stat adjustments to make the unit as combat effective as it is now.

- Brumbar is a bad unit. Its accuracy is sub-par and it has no other redeeming qualities. A panzerwerfer is a cheaper and better choice in 99% of gameplay scenarios.

- Prostruppen spam is slightly too effective.

A five-man squad would be a band-aid solution. The issue is with grenades, artillery, and tanks being designed in a way that encourages wipes.

There are two better solutions to this:

1. - The full solution. Rework all tanks so anti-infantry DPS is on the MGs, artillery has larger AOE and lower damage, and grenades do less damage but cover doesn't reduce their damage. This will never happen because it would be extremely time-consuming.

2. - A better band-aid. Set all infantry target sizes to 1, multiply the health of all infantry models by the inverse of their current target sizes and make all current received accuracy multipliers into received damage multipliers. This would need some tuning given that vet durability has never really worked against tanks but would help fix the problem with four-man squads and random wipes.

The Brummbar just needs cost and reload time reductions as well as heavy crush. Something like this:

- Reload time reduced from 9/7.5 to 7.5/7.5
- Passtype changed to heavy crush
- Cost reduced from 470/160 to 410/150

When balancing Osttruppen, the cover bonus might be a good place to start. It gives them 300% normal accuracy and they can spawn with standard Grenadier MG42s in some doctrines.

Not really.

One is faster and slightly more accurate, other is better armored, reloads slightly faster and have advantage in MGs and vet.

If anything, they are comparable with slight advantage to P4.

Given your assessment, I don't think you can deny that the Cromwell is slightly under-priced. A price of 340/120 would fit it better than its current 340/110.

Cromwell is cheaper, is 50% more accurate on the move on top of having higher base accuracy, extremely good at crushing, faster (and gets ludicrously fast with vet), has a smaller target size than any other medium tank, comes at a significantly lower tech cost, has nondoctrinal smoke, and has a gun that's noticeably better at penetrating other medium tanks.

P4 starts to come into its own only after vet 2, and that's only against other medium vehicles and infantry AT weapons. Cromwell is by far the superior vehicle for cost.

the 75mm ROQF and the 75m kwk 42 have the same base accuracy.

the cromwell only have a significantly lower tech cost if the british skip his weapon rack, grenades, squad size, or bofor/AEC. If he buy any two of of those upgrade the tech cost is about the same.

the coaxial and hull mg on the panzer 4 are better than the ones on the cromwell.

the panzer 4 fire 5% faster than the cromwell and have 180 armor vs 160 armor.

At best, the cromwell is worth about the same as the wehr panzer 4, but raising the cromwell price now is going to kill the british faction.

I would also argue that the cromwell have to face significantly stronger opponent. the panzer 4 generally only have to worry british armor and they are a lot more manageable than what the axis can field.

the 75mm ROQF and the 75m kwk 42 have the same base accuracy.

the cromwell only have a significantly lower tech cost if the british skip his weapon rack, grenades, squad size, or bofor/AEC. If he buy any two of of those upgrade the tech cost is about the same.

the coaxial and hull mg on the panzer 4 are better than the ones on the cromwell.

the panzer 4 fire 5% faster than the cromwell and have 180 armor vs 160 armor.

At best, the cromwell is worth about the same as the panzer 4, but raising the cromwell price now is going to kill the british faction.

Its just me or cromwell pathing seems way better than p4 ?

Its just me or cromwell pathing seems way better than p4 ?

they have the same pathing AI. Cromwell is a lot more forgiving because of its superior rotational rate.

That rotational rate is also a large part of why the cromwell is so much better at crushing infantry. A large part of crushing infantry is turning into them with your tank. The infantry dodging AI can't keep up with a fast turning tank like the m10 or the cromwell.

If you want to nerf the cromwell and m10's crushing, the first stats to nerf is their rotational rate, not max speed or acceleration.

the 75mm ROQF and the 75m kwk 42 have the same base accuracy.

Checked AE, my bad- coh2stats.hu is wrong, they do have the same accuracy. The significantly better moving accuracy still makes the Cromwell clearly superior in vehicle combat though, with the P4 and T34 very obviously inferior in this regard.

the cromwell only have a significantly lower tech cost if the british skip his weapon rack, grenades, squad size, or bofor/AEC. If he buy any two of of those upgrade the tech cost is about the same.

Grenades, weapon racks, and squad sizes are very rarely bought before Cromwell, if at all. Source- any Brit 1v1 game. AEC is the real offender here, and adding in one or more 222s brings the Wehr tech cost above the Brit again. MP cost is further tilted in the favour of the Brit player.

the coaxial and hull mg on the panzer 4 are better than the ones on the cromwell.

I'd take the speed and insane crush over that.

the panzer 4 fire 5% faster than the cromwell and have 180 armor vs 160 armor.

Negligible until Vet 2/3.

At best, the cromwell is worth about the same as the panzer 4, but raising the cromwell price now is going to kill the british faction.

Cromwell isn't overpowered in context of faction balance, and I never said it was. On a per-unit basis, it definitely is better than every other medium tank for price.

Grenades, weapon racks, and squad sizes are very rarely bought before Cromwell, if at all. Source- any Brit 1v1 game. AEC is the real offender here, and adding in one or more 222s brings the Wehr tech cost above the Brit again. MP cost is further tilted in the favour of the Brit player.

the british tommies is going to be at a serious disadvantage against the grenadier if the british skipped his infantry upgrades. lmg42, rifle grenade, and faust are some of the best infantry upgrades and abilities in the game.

Even a 444 is still a pretty serious threat against an AEC and can easily explicit the british's lack of infantry atw. Once the AEC die, the british are pretty helpless against the 444 onslaught.

5 men Grens would be a decent start (ofc adjusting health and DPS to match current fighting ability). Maybe adjusting either MG42 cost or T1 building cost so that you can build a gren squad immediatly after T1 is built. Gren reinforce cost / popcap is also a way of doing it. Wehrmacht is fine at every stage of the game, except the very early game, and early to mid game, as grens are easily pushed off the important areas of the map too easily.

Cromwell is cheaper, is 50% more accurate on the move on top of having higher base accuracy, extremely good at crushing, faster (and gets ludicrously fast with vet), has a smaller target size than any other medium tank, comes at a significantly lower tech cost, has nondoctrinal smoke, and has a gun that's noticeably better at penetrating other medium tanks.

P4 starts to come into its own only after vet 2, and that's only against other medium vehicles and infantry AT weapons. Cromwell is by far the superior vehicle for cost.

Agreed. The fact that the Cromwell is so fast makes it good at crushing units, circle strafing tanks, hunting down German rocket artillery, and getting out alive.

The p4 can't really crush, can't circle strafe the generally faster allied tanks,
Is too slow and expensive to hunt down rocket artillery and is needed for Ostheer to make any sort of offensive.

I played a 4v4 as Brits last night and finished off 3 pwerfers, 7 stukas, 3 panthers, and 2 KTs with my cromwells. I lost 9 total. Cromwells are perfect for trading with the generally more expensive axis tanks. Also,their smaller target size (same as 222) makes it harder for heavies to hit them so they are excellent against tanks and infantry. Their non doc on the move spotting scopes are nice too
And did I mention their free blitz?

My Cromwell life expectancy wasn't that great that game...

You guys have to think abut the roles that the cromwell and the p4 have in their armies.

The cromwell is a mass tank. It is meant to be massed, which can be seen because of its propensity as a cheaper, faster, tank that doesn't really synergize with the other units in its tier.

The p4 is a screening tank. It is slower, but has greater armor and anti infantry firepower. You build 1 p4, then build stugs or ostwind behind it to deal with the threats you encounter. This is further reinforced by the fact that the p4 gets some of the best tank vet in the game, making it scale more with survivability.

I currently find both tanks to be fine, though the cromwell could use an armor decrease to reflect it's other advantages. #stuglyfe

How about making bunkers for 50MP but all upgrades would cost 100MP + 60ammo.

Definitely something to consider. Bunkers as actual cover for your infantry are by comparison to UKF Trenches, pretty terrible. With the same price, I'm pretty sure they'd still be inferior for the same purposes anyway while still having the different upgrade options, which sounds pretty fair to me.

Definitely something to consider. Bunkers as actual cover for your infantry are by comparison to UKF Trenches, pretty terrible. With the same price, I'm pretty sure they'd still be inferior for the same purposes anyway while still having the different upgrade options, which sounds pretty fair to me.

Doesn't sound bad, cause what i learn from another thread, is that OH bunker gives different type of cover that UKF trenches.
It may lead to a different opening. Say early bunker into later an MG bunker on cutoff positions.

Doesn't sound bad, cause what i learn from another thread, is that OH bunker gives different type of cover that UKF trenches.

Cruzz was talking about the trenches, so he probably didn't mean the bunkers.

British trenches are garrison cover, which panzerwerfer did full damage to

Ostheer and OKW trenches are heavy (green) cover

Should be fairly easy to test what they're using. If the units inside the given garrisoned bunker/trench/whatever can be suppressed, then they definitely aren't using garrison cover which makes them receive no suppression.

Cruzz was talking about the trenches, so he probably didn't mean the bunkers.

Should be fairly easy to test what they're using. If the units inside the given garrisoned bunker/trench/whatever can be suppressed, then they definitely aren't using garrison cover which makes them receive no suppression.

My point was mostly for noting that they are not as dead traps as UKF trenches against nades or some type of indirect damage.

Good point about the suppression part.

Ostheer is nice for the fluff but its core is trash, crutching extremely hard on snipers, prosttruppen and callins. And, unless its infantry becomes more resilient/less vulnerable to RNG wipes this conundrum is not going to go away.

Same goes for Pioneers, 200MP seems too much, Sappers are way better.

Honestly Sappers should really be ~250 mp for how good they are. They're marginally worse than sturmpios for much cheaper. (Especially with 5 man upgrade.)

Honestly Sappers should really be ~250 mp for how good they are. They're marginally worse than sturmpios for much cheaper. (Especially with 5 man upgrade.)

Mhm, problem is Royal Engineers, not Pioneers.