OKW needs a rework

Plain and simple:

Side tech for healing, repairs and flak gun
Side tech for incendiary nades
Remove schrecks from volks (you can give double schrecks to Obers for example)
Tonedown vet 5, especially on vehicles.

Once done, lower prices for T4 tanks.

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I know most of the suggestions probably aren't originally mine. I don't have time to search all the possible quotes that may or may not exist. The point of this thread was mostly to bring it to the developers' attention, if they still read these forums.

TNrg.

Mgnmhn.

Actually, my answer was a pile of acid bitterness and sarcasm about a complain that have been answered countless times.
What i reproach you is to ignore the answers that have been given to supposed problem you point.

To clarify things, yes they do read the forums more carefully than us. But unlike us, they do not post what get through their minds blindlessly and instead, choose carefully their words when they post something.

The supposed problems you shows are subjective ones that are part of a bigger picture. To caricature it would be like saying "tanks are imb@ vs infantery".

Remember that Devz got the whole picture, backed up by numbers, statistics and win ratios, something you do not have and lacking it you can only make assumption based on your own personnal view of the game. Biais everywhere, double standard.

Kozokus.

"Ok i get what you said, BUT OKW IS STILL IMBA"

@AustralianMagic; So you want the western version of OstInTears?

@AustralianMagic; So you want the western version of OstInTears?

Didnt know OST has any sideupgrades or such great units like OKW has.

Toning down the vet 5 while lowering the cost of their vehicles, that's where you went wrong. That just makes a boring not attractive at all.

Toning down the vet 5 while lowering the cost of their vehicles, that's where you went wrong. That just makes a boring not attractive at all.

That just makes it more balanced.

Plain and simple:

Side tech for healing, repairs and flak gun
Side tech for incendiary nades
Remove schrecks from volks (you can give double schrecks to Obers for example)
Tonedown vet 5, especially on vehicles.

Once done, lower prices for T4 tanks.

Have you not seen the pol results? Basic logic has no power here XD

That just makes it more balanced.

They are already paying for the vet 5 with extra fuel for average vehicles (bar KT/JT which cost a fortune anyway.) and the fact that they can't build any caches.

They are already paying for the vet 5 with extra fuel for average vehicles (bar KT/JT which cost a fortune anyway.) and the fact that they can't build any caches.

You build cache when you´re already dominating in 1vs1 and barely build more than 1 which isn't a big advantage on its own.
Now if really the cache is that important for you, you can considere that being the only faction able to build his Tiers1-2-3 anywhere in the map is a good counterpart. being able to secure 1/3 of the map with tier3 has much more value than an additional fuel cache.

being able to secure 1/3 of the map with tier3 has much more value than an additional fuel cache.

Brits can already do that and have caches as well. And they don't NEED the building for their tier units either.

This is how OKW works (like a charm) in 1v1s against SU.

Build 3 Volks with Schrecks, support them with 1 or 2 ISGs and your sturms and maybe one raketten.
Next put a Luchs out and if SU player goes hard T2 follow up with a Stuka (you dont have to worry about AT because you have the volks and the raketten. After that put your Schwer at a VP and/or Fuel and wait for Panther or KT and GG.
Let the poor SU player try to cap VP point from one end of the map to the other.

This build counters everything non doctrinal units from SU till T3 (mid game) and even T4. Even without picking a commander yourself.

So to win this as SU you have to be in front in the early game and not choose the wrong commander.
If you don't, you are gardened.

If this is OK i don't know what isn't. OKW needs desperately tweaks.

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And this, gentlemen, is why everyone maxim spams. It's the only reliable way to get a strong enough early game advantage to prevent the OKW from snowballing, because the soviets' late game generally can't match the OKW's.

USF and brits however have actually DPS and weapon upgrades for their main infantry so that's a different story.

They are already paying for the vet 5 with extra fuel for average vehicles (bar KT/JT which cost a fortune anyway.) and the fact that they can't build any caches.

No, it doesn't work like this.

They pay extra for T4 level vehicles they can buy from T3 priced tech.

That isn't the price for vet5, that is the price to not have the faction insanely batshit OP like it was during week 1 after the revamp.

Lack of caches in 1s is irrelevant, because sprice is pretty much the only non scrub who builds them in 1s and in team games you have ost spamming them anyway.

A whooping total of ZERO side costs also adds to the mix.

We can have hopes for next balance patch to fix that though.

This is how OKW works (like a charm) in 1v1s against SU.

Build 3 Volks with Schrecks, support them with 1 or 2 ISGs and your sturms and maybe one raketten.
Next put a Luchs out and if SU player goes hard T2 follow up with a Stuka (you dont have to worry about AT because you have the volks and the raketten. After that put your Schwer at a VP and/or Fuel and wait for Panther or KT and GG.
Let the poor SU player try to cap VP point from one end of the map to the other.

This build counters everything non doctrinal units from SU till T3 (mid game) and even T4. Even without picking a commander yourself.

So to win this as SU you have to be in front in the early game and not choose the wrong commander.
If you don't, you are gardened.

If this is OK i don't know what isn't. OKW needs desperately tweaks.

And i totally forgot the Kubel witch caps the other side of the map and you can focus on the opponents side and fight him off.

Actually, with only a few rare exceptions, OKW gets a pretty good deal out of their vehicles.

Here, I'm not even going to consider the Vet4/Vet5 bonuses some of these vehicles get.

I am also not going to account for the zanny OKW tier structure which allows certain units to appear earlier than their similar-tier counterparts.

The Dirt-Cheap tier

Jagtiger
- This unit is strictly better than the Elefant
- It is very map-dependent, but scales way too good in larger teammodes
- How can this cost (slightly) less than the Elefant?

Sturmtiger
-

Panther Command Tank
- No tech required
- Has aura that benefits allied units
- Has an insane damage-dealing debuff that makes Panzer IV's behave like Tigers
- How can this unit only cost 200 Fuel?
- That vet3/4/5 aura...

The very-cost-effective tier

Jagpanzer IV
- Even at Vet0, this tank can seal-club any tank destroyer vehicle that the opposition can field; even the more expensive ones
- This is without even considering the bugs in the Vet1 ability which make this unit effectively uncounterable

The OK-price tier

Panzer IV (compared to OST Panzer IV)
(You must be thinking: "wtf? This unit costs 20% more fuel")
(without accounting for vet4/vet5)
- This unit gets the OST vet2 armour bonus at vet0
- Furthermore, it absolutely murders infantry at vet2 (scatter affects AI performance mostly)
- OKW "Combat Blitz" > OST "Blitzkrieg" (-50% rec acc, +100% accuracy +40% speed vs -25% rec acc, +15% speed)
- This unit definitely needs a Popcap cost increase

The slightly-overpriced tier

Panther
(without comparing Vet4 and Vet5)
- 50% more accurate on the move than the OST Panther
- Better MGs than the OST Panther
- OKW "Combat Blitz" > OST "Blitzkrieg" (check above)

The super-expensive tier

King tiger
- Fuel-wise it is very inefficient to replace
- No clue about the MP cost (too high or too low)

Yes, the argument regarding the high fuel cost for the KT is to delay the time it takes to field the first KT. However, wouldn't it be better to tie that cost down to a side-upgrade/CPs etc?

PS: Don't bring up the price-efficiency of the Cromwell. Everybody knows that the Cromwell is too efficient for its cost.

Thank you for making this thread TNrg. I've been experimenting with reworking OKW tech and trucks lately and was going to make a thread to discuss it.

I don't like the design of OKW trucks, mostly because they tie tech structures (and their costs) to fairly potent emplacements. This results in either an OKW player being severely punished for using their truck as designed or an Allied player being frustrated by their inability to easily (putting in less effort than the OKW player) destroy an emplacement simply because it's a tech structure.

To address this I moved teching costs to three upgrades in the Headquarters (like Battle Phase upgrades), keeping the same teching costs and structure while making actually converting a truck free. To compensate, I reduced the health of all three OKW trucks to 1000 (from 1600 (Battlegroup)/1920 (Schwerer/Mechanised)).

Obviously, this is only really balanced for the first set of trucks but additional costs could be added by way of side upgrades (Schwerer gun, maybe the old Mechanised resource conversion toggles?).

If you want to try out how this plays, the mod is here.



As for reworking OKW, I like miragefla's changes (Volksgrenadiers as a screening/support unit, Obersoldaten being more affordable, non-doctrinal MG etc.) although I'd be interested in Sturmpioneers receiving an upgrade (120 munitions?, mutually exclusive with flamethrower and minesweeper) that gives them a single Panzershreck, Tank Detection and the ability to place Teller mines to compensate for the reduced infantry AT presence.

Why?

According to axis only snowflakes, its the ultimate remedy for balance

Well of course they should gut the Allies, everyone knows how Germany won the war

OKW got the tier zero AT gun, never needed it. give them a reason to need it, kill the schreck blobs OKW has had the tools to not need that bull for months.

Including cost for retreat point as part of normal tech makes as much sense as including reinforce trucks or forward assembly as tech. Only USF get a retreat point as part of teching.

You did forget that each truck cost 100mp to deploy though, so it ends up at 900mp anyway . Which is way to cheap compared to the others(brits come close) and part of the problem. If you take into account the starting resources and value of starting units(what you get for free every game), and subtract it from cost for full tech, it ends up at ~250mp, compared to SU ~750, OST ~630, USF ~600 & UKF ~500 (not including bolster squads). The difference gets lower if any tiers or upgrades are skipped of course (i.e. t1 & molotovs), but that comes at the cost of diversity/utility. And OKW can arguably skip mech truck in the same way (very risky, map dependant and situational unless 2v2-4v4).



I think OKW is pretty much fine fuel wise so any side upgrades should have their cost focused on mp, not fuel. A similar cost to medics as the other factions, as you mention, would be a good start. Flak Truck should have a cost as well (munitions probably), it's a low risk, highly performing cutoff guard at the very least, if one don't want to put it aggressively.

Thanks, I was writing it out struggling to remember what it was now after trucks were built by yourself.

OKW has lots of small (actually some of them not even that small) advantages over other factions that in my opinion make the faction too forgiving.


Schrecks need to be either a) on a dedicated AT infantry unit b) a side tech that costs fuel. It's unfair to have such a strong AT platform that counters tanks really well and accumulates veterancy in no time on mainline infantry with no additional teching costs.

Incendiary nades need to become a side tech that costs fuel, just like all other grenade abilities on mainline infantry units. However, I think that maxim spam needs to be addressed one way or the other if something like this will be implemented.

Infiltration nades need to be more expensive. They are ridiculously strong for their cost.

Free heal / repair truck I can understand; it's a teching choice. However the repair speed could be a lot slower, since OKW already has the sturmpioneers that have the fastest repair speed in the game. But the T3 Flak truck is just unfair - it can lock down a large area (especially in 1v1 maps) and it takes a huge effort to destroy it. Make the flak cannon on top of it an additional upgrade for munitions/fuel or increase the building's initial cost.

Another weird thing about OKW buildings is that if you damage the truck when it's undeployed it can still deploy as a full health structure if it doesn't receive damage during the deployment.


Veterancy and resource income. Originally, the design principle of the OKW faction was strong units (especially late game with veterancy) but lowered resource income. Now, after the resource penalty removed long time ago and the veterancy working like it should, OKW has the strongest veterancy in the game with no resource penalties. The main problem is that the OKW mainline infantry, volksgrenadiers, accumulate veterancy very quickly with their schreck upgrades and are generally very cheap for what they can do.

Currently, OKW has a strong early game (sturmpio rush + kubel capping behind), strong mid-game (Luchs rush, double LeIGs, schrecked volks for backup) and strong late game (the Panther, very potent veterancy, heavy tanks like the King Tiger).

You say rework but this just looks like a long list of nerfs.

Volks need to lose pshreks but for that to happen they need faust and some form of anti infantry upgrade like g43's or mg34/mg42. Without an additional upgrade i feel like they would never reach vet 5.

Raketen needs a buff it is far too weak as it is, remove camo and give a quicker reload.

maybe double shrek upgrade for obers? or dedicated anti tank squad

Obers need a wee nerf on vet 5

flame nades need to stay, only reliable way of clearing buildings

OKW flaktruck is honestly the only non doc way of defending an area, okw doesn't get caches for cut off points or defensive bunkers (unless proper commannder is chosen)