Vickers HMG: lower damage and increase suppression?

Vickers HMGs have good damage, but their suppression is so bad most squads can walk into their cone of fire and de-cap a point before they get pinned(if they ever get pinned). I know this subject gets brought up every so often, but really what good is this unit if a lone squad can walk into my cut-off to de-cap it and get away with a few models lost(if he had retreated right away in the video when the de-cap was done he would have only lost 2 models). This also brings up the point that squads can walk into a Vicker's cone of fire and Nade it even if starting from the furthest edge of the cone(the guy could have easily naded my HMG).


This now requires more micro-tax on my part to reconnect my cut-off by either bring over another squad, that could be fighting elsewhere, over to recap or remove my HMG from the safety of the building to recap the point. That a 280MP HMG can't even protect your points from being de-capped is ridiculous. I propose lowering the Vicker's damage to buff its suppression. Feel free to comment on why you would or would not like this change.

Yeah, the suppression on the Vickers is absolute garbage.

You need two Vickers firing at the same squad to reliably pin and that's a 560 manpower investment, not to mention you can't spread your force and take ground since you MUST ALWAYS outnumber the opposition with combined arms.

We have Tommies to screen and do damage. MGs should do their freaking job, and that job is to COUNTER BLOBS.

I wouldn't remove the damage. Until PIATs are actually useful in some way, Brits need all the soft counters for light vehicles they can get.

The extra sight/range they get in buildings at vet1 helps make up for the the suppression issue a bit.

Honestly, I think the single biggest problem with the vickers is its inability to suppress *volksgrenadiers*. Those guys will blob straight at you and throw an instant flame nade, even though thematically they should be a relatively poorly trained unit that is easily suppressed.

My solution:

Either generally increase how easily volksgrenadiers are suppressed.

Or

Add a table entry to increase volksgrenadier suppression against Vickers HMGs.

Add a table entry to increase volksgrenadier suppression against Vickers HMGs.

I like this idea. More use of the target tables in situations like these is always good.

I wouldn't remove the damage. Until PIATs are actually useful in some way, Brits need all the soft counters for light vehicles they can get.

vickers are questionable vehicle counter anyway. a mg42 with the vet 1 abilities completely outclass a vet 2 vicker in terms of anti-vehicle capability.

Let me guess... you're one of those players who throw a MG in a building completely unsupported and expects it to lock an entire area down, only for the enemy to just run around your house and throw a nade in it?

The Vickers MG is one of the best MG's for slugging it out with other MG's, especially if they're in houses or cover. It will snipe most garrisoned units out of buildings and it's pretty strong. Just leave it alone.

Let me guess... you're one of those players who throw a MG in a building and expects it to lock an entire area down, only for the enemy to just run around your house and throw a nade in it?

No, nobody said that. We're saying that the enemy can run straight *at* the house front on and throw a nade in it.

The Vickers MG is one of the best MG's for slugging it out with other MG's, especially if they're in houses or cover. It will snipe most garrisoned units out of buildings and it's pretty strong.

That's correct, but it's also a very niche situation and definitely not the one being discussed.

When I watch the video, I see Volks being instantly suppressed as soon as the MG fires on them. I think the OP wants the Vickers to pin quicker, not necessarily suppress faster. There's a difference here.

Anybody can easily take a lone MG out of a building, it's not just the vickers. Just run up to a MG42 in a building and throw a nade in it if it's completely alone with no support units.

It's even worse for Axis because Rifles have access to smoke nades which basically negates all suppression.

Suppression is just there to slow enemies. Once they're suppressed, toss a nade on them and force them to retreat. People want instant pinning shit and they have no idea what they're even asking for.

the suppression is justified with the vet1 range, vickers+trench combo can deal with a blob pretty easy.

really as a britbong fanboy it's one of the few early game units fine as is. it suits the faction well, especially with some much needed DPS

Maybe have suppressed units de-cap and cap slower?

See how often Allied infantry can de-cap/cap when in the field of a MG42 or Maxim and compare that to the B.S. in the video I posted. The only reliable unit the Brits have to cover a side point or cutoff from being de-capped is the Bofors and then you lock yourself out of the AEC which is really needed for the current 222 spam. I am not asking for a ton of faction symmetry, but given how important controlling points is and how many resources you can lose from your cutoff being de-capped for even 60 sec, is it so unfair that the Brits 280MP HMG be at least able to pin one squad before they de-cap a point?

When I watch the video, I see Volks being instantly suppressed as soon as the MG fires on them. I think the OP wants the Vickers to pin quicker, not necessarily suppress faster. There's a difference here.
Anybody can easily take a lone MG out of a building, it's not just the vickers. Just run up to a MG42 in a building and throw a nade in it if it's completely alone with no support units.
It's even worse for Axis because Rifles have access to smoke nades which basically negates all suppression.
Suppression is just there to slow enemies. Once they're suppressed, toss a nade on them and force them to retreat. People want instant pinning shit and they have no idea what they're even asking for.

Plus One

Maybe have suppressed units de-cap and cap slower?

OK, i get get behind that one.
Opie, just do what the rest of the BritBong players do and spam Bofors.

the suppression is justified with the vet1 range, vickers+trench combo can deal with a blob pretty easy.

really as a britbong fanboy it's one of the few early game units fine as is. it suits the faction well, especially with some much needed DPS

Twice I put vickers into trenches and twice one nade wipe from a single gren rifle nade. Thought it was a fluke the first time but they are too bunched up. I can handle the flame nade because I have time to react to that but the clumping with the OH grens is nasty.

It costs more then HMG42 which has both, damage and suppression.
Why would it have to give anything in return for suppression on pair when it already costs more, have comparable damage and contrary to Ost, UKF doesn't start with bonus menpower.

Snuck up on a 42 with some Commandos the other day, chucked a Gammon bomb in and all looked good.

Gammon bomb killed three models, 42 almost instantly pinned the squad which then had to retreat. So even with the premium tools available I couldn't take a garrison.

Against a Vickers no stealth or doctrinal grenades needed, just wander up with a piss cheap squad and kill it.

Needs a small buff to supression or it's target types need a nerf to take more suppression.

It costs more then HMG42 which has both, damage and suppression.
Why would it have to give anything in return for suppression on pair when it already costs more, have comparable damage and contrary to Ost, UKF doesn't start with bonus menpower.

#ukfonlifesupport

Hardly.

However it is a bit tiresome that cheaper equivalents of certain units perform better then their more expensive brothers with relic artificially trying to give them different role(suppression values vs penetration values and vet between the two, which goes completely down the shitter at vet1, because of incendiary rounds>>>UKF vet and stock penetration on vickers).

Relic just tries to reinvent wheel over and over again and we end up with situation where more expensive unit performs or scales worse then cheaper equivalent from other army.

I could understand if there was asymmetrical balance between the two like MG42 vs vickers vs maxim, but these two are practically identical in role and use with biggest difference being visuals and price.