ESL - Only for Pro's?

Hey Community,

I'd like to talk about the topic ESL and the fact that they announced more of these GO4CUP's with prizes for 2nd and 3rd place. A good thing you would say? I think otherwise. It's a good thing on it's own, but not in the current form.

We have a handful of professional players who win every tournament. OCF, SNF, ESL, etc. Jesulin battles it out against Luvnest, Barton & SPrice batle it out against eachother and so on. We all love to see the players play against each other, nothing negative there, but the fact that they can participate in every cup, every week makes me wonder about the rest of the community... What about them? Don't they deserve a chance? Every week, ESL has the same pro's winning.

For the sake of next arguments, let's say we divide the community into the following skill groups;

High++ (Jesulin, Luvnest, HelpingHans, Barton, DevM, ...)
High+ (Top 10 and up, more unknown players but still really fucking good)
High (Top 20 and up)
Mid+ (Top 20-50)
Mid (50-100)
Low+ (100-200)
Low (200-300)
Low - (300 and up)

Point: The ESL GO4CUPS are focussed on the High++ section, where only 1% of the community is situated. As this is pretty normal for the first weeks to showcase and test, this is not normal for the follow up (which they announced just now).

First you can argue with me that everyone can sign up which is true, but there is a difference between a Luvnest, Jesulin, HelpingHans and someone who is in the top 20 somewhere on the 10th or 12th place. There is no chance for these guys, as they won't win the cup just because they lack the skill.

Secondly you can argue that in any Esport, the best will always win. True, but just like in CS:GO, you still have divisions or split up leagues so players of mid skill can enjoy a tournament without getting kicked in the teeth by Na'Vi, NiP or Fnatic.

Thirdly, you can argue that the Esport-scene of COH2 is simply too small to begin splitting up the scene. Well here I beg the differ. I'm not a pro player what so ever, but when I know that there is a different tournament for players above the Top 20? Hell I would join! And I believe a lot of us would too. Now we're not even bothering joining a tournemant which is dominated by the same winners over and over again.

Closing argument;

Even without putting much money into another tournament, Relic could be engaging a lot more of the community instead of showcasing the same winners and handing them 'easy money'.

/Flame on.

But this isn't a problem with Relic, this is a problem with ESL in general

Welcome to the competitive scene.

I'm not sure what it is you're asking for?

The entire reason for Relic to offer prize money is in order to get a return on that money. This means they want the game to grow, and the best way for it to grow initially is for the absolute best players to face off against each other. This draws the most interest and viewership. Thus we have the ESL tournament with the best players obviously signing up (and winning). This isn't just some theory or anything. Other E-sport games have grown their playerbase (and thus profits) following this model. It only makes sense for Relic to follow it as well in order to get the best possibility for return on their investment.

Its like watching Tennis. Do you watch some local club players or do you watch Wimbledon? Yes, Federer, Djokavic, et al always seem to win there too, but it also brings in the viewership right?

Now I understand the desire for someone such as yourself wanting to play in tournaments you could compete in. Heck, I'd like that too...I'm not good enough to compete in these high level tourneys either. What I also understand is that for now, Relic isn't gonna invest in something like that until it sees a return on investment on their initial outlay. And even then they would probably have to be convinced an "amateur" tourney like you're suggesting could be profitable for them...and that's a high hurdle to vault.

That said, there is no reason someone like yourself couldn't organize a tourney if you think it could work. People have done all sorts of tourneys using this platform as a way to advertise. But I think expecting Relic or even Coh2.org to provide that tourney for ya is asking a bit much.

I'm not sure what it is you're asking for?

The entire reason for Relic to offer prize money is in order to get a return on that money. This means they want the game to grow, and the best way for it to grow initially is for the absolute best players to face off against each other. This draws the most interest and viewership. Thus we have the ESL tournament with the best players obviously signing up (and winning). This isn't just some theory or anything. Other E-sport games have grown their playerbase (and thus profits) following this model. It only makes sense for Relic to follow it as well in order to get the best possibility for return on their investment.

Its like watching Tennis. Do you watch some local club players or do you watch Wimbledon? Yes, Federer, Djokavic, et al always seem to win there too, but it also brings in the viewership right?

Now I understand the desire for someone such as yourself wanting to play in tournaments you could compete in. Heck, I'd like that too...I'm not good enough to compete in these high level tourneys either. What I also understand is that for now, Relic isn't gonna invest in something like that until it sees a return on investment on their initial outlay. And even then they would probably have to be convinced an "amateur" tourney like you're suggesting could be profitable for them...and that's a high hurdle to vault.

That said, there is no reason someone like yourself couldn't organize a tourney if you think it could work. People have done all sorts of tourneys using this platform as a way to advertise. But I think expecting Relic or even Coh2.org to provide that tourney for ya is asking a bit much.

I'd love for this game to grow honestly and even if relic is a bit shady in their sneaky way i support them. This game with all of its flaws and stressful times, is actually quite amazing. I'd love for more people to enjoy the love out of this game.

Also tennis is sexy, only watch it because the ladies are good looking.

As for skill level i'm a bit rusty as i hadn't played for a while, and i don't have the time or patients to play this game in a super competitive manner, I wish I can take the time to get really good at this game and show off some moves, but alas my ego has to be smashed with my badness. If other players would like to creat a tourney with a prizepool for people of the skill level as I and half the rest of the community that'd be really great, even if it is something like first prize 20$, then 10, then 5. and a stamp for good measure...

With all due respect the tournaments for lower level players do exist and come around fairly often. But you are not going to find public ESL events for low level players. Nobody wants to see that and it doesn't help showcase the game in any respect. The game has never been big enough to warrant tournaments for this side of the community.

Lets not forget that when these events are held none of the lower ranking community ever signs up for them!

Obviously ESL will be dominated by the top players but when you're saying that it's always the same people I would have to disagree with that. There's loads of new faces popping up and beating the big names. Talisman, Black Ace, DevM, Overlord, Jove to name a few. With money being put into the tournament more of these big players will come in to public eye and it will get more interesting and diverse from there.

I'd say that's pretty damn interesting... but then again.. I would ha!

Enter anyway even if you aren't a high level player but change your definition of a "win" from winning the tournament, to making it through 1 or 2 rounds

I seriously didnt get the point here?
So you want some kind of communist competetive scene ?
Every player has same chance as the other guy.
Seeding changes tournament after tournament. So If someone intrested compete in a tournament and with best players around the world, they have to be play from Day1 to get into good positions.
If high level players K.O. at first positions It would be not intresting at all.
Also I belive we seen different players who rise up from automatch and showing their name in ESL because of weekly cup. Jesu,Hans,DevM... all these guys are getting serius beating at ESL and they are just started to take It little more serious to get better which is good thing couse little by little overall(CoH community) skill level is increasing.
P.S. I think If you belived your own argument you wouldnt need to write "flame on"

There is no equality in competition.

There is no need for special olympics for coh2 or "everyone is a winner" approach for lower players.

Simply git gud.

Very funny to see players here talking about 'Welcome to the competitive scene', 'Communist competitive scene', special olympics etc.
Please inform yourselves about leagues and other divisions before posting such crap. Everywhere in sports, whether it's Esports or Sports, you have leagues and divisions.

What was I thinking, trying to discuss something on this forum..
Topic can be closed as some of us lack brains to think.

Seriously people, you guys are stupid as ass if you think it's about everyone needs to win.

Welcome to sports, it's about being the best you can be at something.

Isn't it a shame that in tennis Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray have won everything for the past several years? No it's not, they've given millions the best tennis to watch, and have hit the peak of that sport. The same applies here the rest of the community get the pleasure of seeing this game played to its maximum extent in ability and strategical expertise.

If you want a piece of that tournament prizepool you have to start taking competitive CoH seriously and playing in a more analytical and concerted fashion. Or just play for fun and be competitive in your own right, but don't expect people to be clamouring to watch casts of your games, and don't expect tournament organisers to provide prize-pools that reach the lower finishing positions in such a small game.

However! The bigger the scene gets the more tournaments there are and the more opportunists that arise, the big players can't play in all of them at once!

It's a shame that great players like ASSBAG, Talisman, and Jove will find it difficult to crack the top five of top tier players, but it will make it all the sweeter when they do.

Your arguments are transferable to any sport or competitive gaming activity since the dawn of civilisation. Winning is everything and yes it's cruel.

This thread made me sad because I realized I'm Low - - - - - - - (about rank 700-800)

This thread made me sad because I realized I'm Low - - - - - - - (about rank 700-800)

Tbh, thats not Low anymore, when you look at his skala. That should be: noob / greenhorn

Very funny to see players here talking about 'Welcome to the competitive scene', 'Communist competitive scene', special olympics etc.
Please inform yourselves about leagues and other divisions before posting such crap. Everywhere in sports, whether it's Esports or Sports, you have leagues and divisions.

What was I thinking, trying to discuss something on this forum..
Topic can be closed as some of us lack brains to think.

Seriously people, you guys are stupid as ass if you think it's about everyone needs to win.

Yeah, 3rd leagues exist in normal sports too, but I don't see 3rd league championship transmissions anywhere I wonder if its because it happens on too low level for anyone to actually care.
E-sports aren't any different here.

but I dont wanna watch a top 300 player?

To be honest I think it's fairly easy to get in line with those players if you put a good amount of exercise and dedication in getting better. It's nothing compared to what certain people do for SC2.

Who want to see this man? I don't want to want to watch low skill players "trying to do something" and I think 99% of coh community agree with me.

''rest of the community... What about them?'' - Every single member of community has all the same changes as the top 5 players. Every1 can be there, others practise harder than others, others practise less, but learn fast, than others. We are not in fking special olympics (<- that sounds racist, but what the hell)
''The ESL GO4CUPS are focussed on the High++ section '' - Out of curiousity, who u think there should be ? make tournament , where top 500 plays each others, and meet at semifinals with top 5 then we see 2 min baserape games ? seriously ? i think u didint really think this post very well.

EVERY1 can join the tournament(seriously, u can too ! ), but there is no point changing the tournament system , so we see baserape games at semifinals, when they should be toughest games before finals.

ps. i can watch luvnest and jesulin in every single game i watch coh, not gettin boring Kappa

I gotta agree with the sentiment of the others here. If you wanna compete in tourneys and want to have a decent chance of winning then work for it. The ~2000h of CoH2 logged on my account are there for a reason. If you don't that's totally fine aswell, If I had spent that amount of time on my studies I would have probably been finished by now lol. You decide if it's worth your time.

Can't really be solved besides splitting it up into leagues or something

Would prefer to see more resources to help newer players out as the CoH2 wiki is non-existent or not as good as CoH1. Also not many guides.

I'd gladly make a UKF guide but I don't think I'm qualified.