And how simple it is to chase a weak panzer through some smoke. Happens a lot.
....And often ends up with your tank being wrecked instead.
Panzer Tactician Smoke is outright broken
1 Feb 2016, 07:11 AM
#61
Posts: 83
....And often ends up with your tank being wrecked instead.
1 Feb 2016, 11:15 AM
#62
Posts: 345
Panzer Tactician costs 30 munis. Concealing Smoke on flak track is actually free. The M20 and AEC also get smoke AND are non-doctrinal. Note that Panzer Tactician takes up one of there doctrinal abilities slots.
CalliOP cost 140 fuel, pee-werfer and stucka cost quite less fuel, AND are non-doctrinal. That CalliOP takes up one of there doctrinal abilities slots.
nah mate, those are not good arguments to defend a unit that is overperforming.
An already muni starved faction (OKW) is now more muni starved and still can't build caches.
1 Feb 2016, 11:26 AM
#63
Posts: 345
I had a game a few days ago where I was using riegel AT mines (guarantees engine destroyed) and a Sherman hit it and got disabled, as I was moving my paks in to finish it off, he had hopped out and repaired it, smoked my paks and was gone.
Non-doctrinal ability countering doctrinal one.
If Ostheers panzer tactician is an "issue" then USFs 3 second crit repairs is also an issue.
You shouldnt expect than a lonely mine beat a medium tank, if your pak is there, you would have finished the job....if a pio squad is there, no crew can hop out and repair....your pio only need to kill two models of the crew, and then, the crew can´t go inside the tank again....
mines are there to stop a flank, paks in good position are there to kill the damaged tank....pio is there to not allow the USF crew crit repairs the tank....
In my opinion, counterplay is there...you can´t lie a mine in the west side of Angoville, have all your troops in the east side and expect that if enemy step on your lonely mine in the west, the tank has to be killed....
well my noob opinion at least.
smoke ---> attack ground....
tank hit a mine ---> pak and pio to secure the job...
Nothing can´t go wrong...
An already muni starved faction (OKW) is now more muni starved and still can't build caches.
1 Feb 2016, 11:26 AM
#64
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
There is one bad thing about this smoke.
Try to overrun IS2 - you die.
Try to overrun Pershin - you die.
Try to overrun Tiger or Panther? - smoke and live. Half won't be able to use ground attack, and the other half just need to pray to RNG. All this just for 30ammo with very decent doctrines.
Try to overrun IS2 - you die.
Try to overrun Pershin - you die.
Try to overrun Tiger or Panther? - smoke and live. Half won't be able to use ground attack, and the other half just need to pray to RNG. All this just for 30ammo with very decent doctrines.
1 Feb 2016, 18:55 PM
#65
Posts: 1072
nah mate, those are not good arguments to defend a unit that is overperforming.
The numbers say otherwise.
1 Feb 2016, 18:58 PM
#66
Posts: 1072
There is one bad thing about this smoke.
Try to overrun IS2 - you die.
Try to overrun Pershin - you die.
Try to overrun Tiger or Panther? - smoke and live. Half won't be able to use ground attack, and the other half just need to pray to RNG. All this just for 30ammo with very decent doctrines.
You can also drive though the smoke. If you say you'll hit paks behind it then you could say the same thing about no smoke. Smoke is an advantage that you get through a doctrine isn't it?
1 Feb 2016, 19:07 PM
#67
Posts: 468
You can also drive though the smoke. If you say you'll hit paks behind it then you could say the same thing about no smoke. Smoke is an advantage that you get through a doctrine isn't it?
It's been around since release so I've just gotten used to it. Chasing German armor usually just ends in failure since like you mentioned pak is the strongest AT in the game. Chasing a panther with frontal 320 armor... would require more than 1 shot to pull off. Then, there's movement accuracy penalty.
So some people feel the increase in price be justified. Maybe, I'm not sure.
Smoke is an advantage you get through a doctrine. I wish there was an Allies doctrine that gives me smoke on my Jacksons, IS2s, pershing, churchill, etc. for 30 muni as well. It would save me a lot against shreck blob
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1 Feb 2016, 19:08 PM
#68
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
You can also drive though the smoke. If you say you'll hit paks behind it then you could say the same thing about no smoke. Smoke is an advantage that you get through a doctrine isn't it?
I can't chase throught the smoke if I don't want to lose my tank since I don't have smoke or blitz to get away.
Button was also advantage you get through doctrine (hard countered by doctrinal smoke) but it was nerfed becasue according to part of community it was OP becasue it led to losing a tank if not countered. Smoke is smiliar but in other way. It saves your tank if you make a mistake.
And attack ground is not always an option. Let's say you are 1 shot away from death, AT gun is almost ready to fire at you (you are 50-60 range from it) and the moment you hit smoke, AT gun loses target and befre you can attack ground, your tank will be out of the range.
1 Feb 2016, 19:31 PM
#69
Posts: 1072
I can't chase throught the smoke if I don't want to lose my tank since I don't have smoke or blitz to get away. Are we assuming the tank is supported? Because that makes it a different story..
Button was also advantage you get through doctrine (hard countered by doctrinal smoke) but it was nerfed becasue according to part of community it was OP becasue it led to losing a tank if not countered. Smoke is smiliar but in other way. It saves your tank if you make a mistake.
And attack ground is not always an option. Let's say you are 1 shot away from death, AT gun is almost ready to fire at you (you are 50-60 range from it) and the moment you hit smoke, AT gun loses target and befre you can attack ground, your tank will be out of the range.
I think the fact that he had AT guns supporting his tank (which can be counter with infantry), picked a certain commander, spent 30 munis, and applied the smoke in time makes the ability balanced. If its unsupported, the smoke works both ways because he can't shoot back at your tanks so they are able to close the distance and get right behind your tank unharmed.
If the tank is supported, then so should yours if you want a balanced situation.
"AT gun is almost ready to fire at you (you are 50-60 range from it) and the moment you hit smoke, AT gun loses target and befre you can attack ground, your tank will be out of the range."
And what about the shermans getting to block enemy AT guns with smoke while attacking or retreating?
1 Feb 2016, 19:37 PM
#70
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
I think the fact that he had AT guns supporting his tank (which can be counter with infantry), picked a certain commander, spent 30 munis, and applied the smoke in time makes the ability balanced. If its unsupported, the smoke works both ways because he can't shoot back at your tanks so they are able to close the distance and get right behind your tank unharmed.
If the tank is supported, then so should yours if you want a balanced situation.
"AT gun is almost ready to fire at you (you are 50-60 range from it) and the moment you hit smoke, AT gun loses target and befre you can attack ground, your tank will be out of the range."
And what about the shermans getting to block enemy AT guns with smoke while attacking or retreating?
Sherman smoke is not insta smoke.
So I assume you think that old Guard ability wasnt OP? I mean, someone was supporting tanks and AT gun with Guards, picked ceratin commander, spent muni for button and combined different units to make use of it?
1 Feb 2016, 20:01 PM
#71
Posts: 1072
Sherman smoke is not insta smoke.
So I assume you think that old Guard ability wasnt OP? I mean, someone was supporting tanks and AT gun with Guards, picked ceratin commander, spent muni for button and combined different units to make use of it?
Smoke is smiliar but in other way. It saves your tank if you make a mistake.
Guards ability is similar to Pak TWP. One is to kill and the other is to survive.
I do think the Guards old button was OP yes. It still exists but toned down.
The similarities here is that each ability is rather pointless without support.
The difference is that TWP, and button (and arty cover for that matter) all leave the owner of the tank feeling hopeless to save it. The smoke on the other hand just means you'll have to fight the tank later.
Also please note that smoke doesn't make you invulnerable to mines. If you are tired of the enemy getting away for 30 munitions with a doctrinal ability, use 30 munitions to lay down a mine and prevent him from getting away next time.
1 Feb 2016, 20:08 PM
#72
Posts: 552
....And often ends up with your tank being wrecked instead.
Well, then it simply is working as intended, allied tanks tend to be cheaper and more spammy. If you truly have out played your opponent, the last shot through the smoke isn't very difficult to achieve. Attack ground aswell, lost many smoked up tanks to that.
ahwoah kenny
2 Feb 2016, 02:11 AM
#73
Posts: 1216
Well given the ever increasing chances that make OKW more like Ostheer, I'd say you are wrong, that most people want a symmetrical game, after the honeymoon phase of "cool new and unique factions!" wears off.
We don't want a symmetrical game. stop lying to yourselves and learn to play.
As for smoke its applied to multiple vehicles, whereas your only comparable Allied version is UKF doctrinal (which makes them stop), and USF's smoke barrage, which is only for Shermans, and while non-doc, makes them stop moving in order to use. Comparatively, Panzer Tactician is superior because it is a no-fuss ability.
2 Feb 2016, 03:19 AM
#74
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
As for smoke its applied to multiple vehicles, whereas your only comparable Allied version is UKF doctrinal (which makes them stop), and USF's smoke barrage, which is only for Shermans, and while non-doc, makes them stop moving in order to use. Comparatively, Panzer Tactician is superior because it is a no-fuss ability.Well, there is the AEC, Greyhound and M20 which all have a Panzer Tactician clone ability.
Correspondingly, I'd say the ability (and I'm putting all of these vehicle defensive smokes under the same umbrella) is conceptually fine. Very potent, but it's not entirely uncounterable (attack-ground, of course, has a chance, and it won't save the vehicle from all positioning errors). However, the current cost of the ability for most examples of it are pretty certainly overperforming with the cost to their benefits - 30 munitions for an M20 to keep the pressure on or saving a Tiger tank is a hilariously profitable deal. Just start with adjusting the ability's cost, maybe think about the cooldown later, and it should be fine.
2 Feb 2016, 04:40 AM
#75
Posts: 199
certainly overperforming with the cost to their benefits - 30 munitions for an M20 to keep the pressure on or saving a Tiger tank is a hilariously profitable deal. Just start with adjusting the ability's cost, maybe think about the cooldown later, and it should be fine.
Agreed, whilst annoying (one of many annoying "features" of the game) the cost is disproportional. Saving an AEC or M20/Greyhound for the same cost as saving a Tiger seems very odd. Understandably if you boost the cost too high then early game might be an issue using the ability so why not make the cost of the ability proportional to the total worth of the vehicle or as simple as light vehicles cost this much, med x ammo and heavy Y ammo? Larger vehicles need more smoke so it costs more.
That way early game cheap vehicles wouldn't be prevented from smoking but late games require more ammo to save a more valuable tank. Wouldn't be hard to work out a value to assign to it.
You could make the argument then that early game vehicles could be used as a cheap smoke screen for the more expensive tanks but to me that just gives the early LV's more of a role in late game and will give you more reward for keeping them alive.
2 Feb 2016, 05:30 AM
#76
Posts: 83
We don't want a symmetrical game.
I'd take a symmetrical and balanced game any day over an asymmetrical unbalanced mess.
2 Feb 2016, 05:52 AM
#77
Posts: 1153 | Subs: 1
Eh, perhaps the smoke could be changed so it doesn't block line of sight instantly, but after 1-3 seconds but still gives an accuracy penalty (like smoke in vCoH).
It is a bit cheesy but to a certain degree it's realistic. That's what the little tubes facing out in different directions are for. I think they also had fragmentation versions to kill infantry but that could be a more modern invention.
It is a bit cheesy but to a certain degree it's realistic. That's what the little tubes facing out in different directions are for. I think they also had fragmentation versions to kill infantry but that could be a more modern invention.
2 Feb 2016, 06:14 AM
#78
Posts: 83
It is a bit cheesy but to a certain degree it's realistic.
This is a game where 4-man infantry squads can shoot each other for over 10 seconds at point blank range and still have men standing. It's also a game with heat-seeking Panzerschreck rockets.
2 Feb 2016, 06:33 AM
#79
Posts: 498
The only thing that needs to be changed about this ability is removing it from ALL the tiger doctrines or just don't allow the tiger to use it, Tiger can just pop a smoke as soon as it goes to low hp or gets a main gun crit, after that it can still take a few shots so ground firing doesn't really matter and rushing through the smoke is usually a suicide for your own tanks
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usf okw soviets ostheer"Lefh is love, Lefh is life" Festung Support for the win
FIIn game know as Törttö ᶠᶸᶜᵏᵧₒᵤ
Best rank 1v1 - 33 Soviets, 2v2 - 1 Ostheer RT
2 Feb 2016, 07:31 AM
#80
Posts: 1153 | Subs: 1
This is a game where 4-man infantry squads can shoot each other for over 10 seconds at point blank range and still have men standing. It's also a game with heat-seeking Panzerschreck rockets.
It's all about scale, my friend.
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