Ostheer is on life support

Oh and as far as heavy tanks being able to take a beating... Pershing? Lol.

The Pershing was specifically designed to fit into the US faction. But yes, it´s also going down too fast.

And the Panther is garbage?? What world do you live in where a tank with the absolute best armor in the game, high speed and mobility, and a great anti-tank cannon is considered "garbage?"

I life in a world where the damage per second on the Panzer IV is higher than that on the Panther and where high penetration values matter in almost no engagement.

Tigers and Panthers are at one of their weakest states ever. Blitz was nerfed, the smoke was made more expensive, the vet 2 bonus where cut to offer less protection bonuses (in case of the Tiger actually no defensive bonus at all), the health was nerfed through the patches. And this is what we are left with now.

Tiger I and IS-2 are the bars by which all other heavy tanks are measured. They've been in the game since the beginning and they are fine, susceptible to slight buffs or debuffs from time to time, but they are the quintessential heavies. You seem to think all should heavies should be these invincible, "one unit army" type things whereby you can leave it alone, unsupported, and suffer no consequences. That's just not how this game works. Every unit needs support and you can't expect a lone, isolated unit to live forever.

While you're on that topic, is it just me or does IS2 absoulutely poop on the tiger?

If the tiger was slow but had churchill like armor, then it would be be worth shit. right now its not bad but its definitely not allied level of strength unless its the Ace, which is the only tiger I see that actually does anything most times. which is sad.

Oh and as far as heavy tanks being able to take a beating... Pershing? Lol.

pershing is a medium for all intents and purposes, its more comparable to the comet and panther.

And the Panther is garbage?? What world do you live in where a tank with the absolute best armor in the game, high speed and mobility, and a great anti-tank cannon is considered "garbage?" About 3/4 of Allied armor has no chance of penetrating the frontal armor of a Panther, and even the tank destroyers and heavies will bounce frontal armor shots half the time as well. And btw, you can make the Panthers work against infantry when you do the same w/ the Jackson, SU-85, and Firefly.

High speed is the quickest way to death usually, what are you gonna use the speed for? running over mines faster while you over extend with your expensive ass panther? or for reversing away like the bitch that the panther is.

3/4 allied armor cant penetrate, well based off what i see, the following are a match for if not better than the panther

-Su76
-Su85
-T3485
-IS2
-Cromwell at closer ranges
-Firefly
-Comet
-Jackson
-Pershing
*churchill on closer maps

Back in the days when the panther was actually worth a shit, it was fighting against the shitty joke SU76 the lovely fun to use SU85, and the IS2, maybe some callin meta t34s with mark vehicle. Times have changed. the list of units that can challenge it have doubled. Not to mention allied infantry AT or mines that ALL 3 allied factions now have.

Tigers and Panthers "going down too fast." Ostheer has some problems, but this isn't it.

yes it is

I play OKW, and I heavily rely on Panther - I sometimes myself believe they're on the limit of being OP; far from being "at their weakest" ever. Panthers shine, and are a beacon of glory what tanks in this game should feel like. 320 powerarmor of doom rolling in!

Paks can be easily flanked by infantry, it may get stolen etc. This thing:
1. adds mobility to ostheer army
2. can in some point chase light vehicules

It's not like it should replace pak, it;s just more mobile early-mid counter to fast light vehicules.

Yes, now you know what it feels like to play SOV T2 since release... mortar, mg, AT gun can all be stolen. Same for vicker's.

Oh the old days where SOV had to spam ZiS to survive p4 onslaught every game just to lose to gren blob.

The AT light vehicle everyone wants here looks just like a su-76 to me. more homogeneity or less? up to you guys. I hear both sides complaining for both.

well placed pak with a gren covering the rear for a faust will do the job. People who talk about sight... well that's why I use vision blockers like buildings and trees. they always want to flank the pak, so I just predict the route/area he'll send his AEC. I actually let my pak shoot infantry just so he knows which way it's facing and bait him in the direction i want.

You know if brit rushes AEC, he'll probably have only 3 infantry units at best assuming he has half the map. I'm sure OST is UP in 1v1 but its units are still good.


The sh*t OP says about panther.... you know it has 3 MGs right? Infantry cannot use cover against it because I'll just crush the cover with my tank and then let it chew down models with my 3 mgs.

Complaining about tiger not tanking is like complaining about pershing not tanking... same idea. oh wait, isn't churchill the same? gets penetrated by everything but has an even crappier main gun but costs the same? same thing... QQ

The sh*t OP says about panther.... you know it has 3 MGs right? Infantry cannot use cover against it because I'll just crush the cover with my tank and then let it chew down models with my 3 mgs.

maybe you can do this in 4v4 obviously but in 1v1 and to an extent 2v2 which im talking about in this thread, thats a horrible idea and usually wont work once the infantry starts to vet up and ignores your panther MG's, while the early and mid game advantages combined with t4 tech costs, almost guarantees you will have 1 panther vs minimum double ATG, vetted allied infantry, and naturally a tank swarm, if you even still have VP's left at that point for it to even matter.

good luck killing a relevant amount of infantry with *pintle MGs LMAO with all that going on.

If CookiezNCream Makes a post about Ostheer on Life support, he is probably right.

For me it feels like that the biggest problems are the teching, since you pay already 65 fuel for t2, and than you pay around a 120 for T3 (in total, and while you teched to t3 to get a p4,ostwind or stug, it most likely happens you get fuel starved till the tank comes out and then you already have to face all the counters on the field aswell.

Then you to face allied infantry MG42's often just get rolled because the gunner gets banged. You can't spread your forces much so it limits the anmount of territory you can hold, because if you spread, you just get forced to retreat because the 4 men squads maybe just win an engagement to conscripts when you have LMG.

Double snipers can make it work but as soon as any kind of tank arives you have to micro the sniper and the tank and this gets really intense, and then the Pak gun has to support your tank while you have to support the MG42 with grens or the snipers.

Ostheer is really stressful and mistakes are punished super heavily.

I have tried different strats, with caches etc after pak40 is out to gain the fuel you need to roll out a tank, but in the end it gets punished by allied indirect fire on vp's and the constant thread to be oneshot by it.

Written from 2v2 perspective

3/4 allied armor cant penetrate, well based off what i see, the following are a match for if not better than the panther

-Su76
-Su85
-T3485
-IS2
-Cromwell at closer ranges
-Firefly
-Comet
-Jackson
-Pershing
*churchill on closer maps

Back in the days when the panther was actually worth a shit, it was fighting against the shitty joke SU76 the lovely fun to use SU85, and the IS2, maybe some callin meta t34s with mark vehicle. Times have changed. the list of units that can challenge it have doubled. Not to mention allied infantry AT or mines that ALL 3 allied factions now have.

yes it is

Oh please, the only bitching i see here right now is this... you say all those tanks are better than the panther? If so, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE RELIC, Please replace all these OP tanks with a panther to even out the game. really? i would trade a panther over:

su76 - even if you charge a panther in wrecklessly, wins 100% of the time
su85 - flank, gg. panther has more utility as AI as well. Guess you've never used it's triple mgs before
t85 - in a slugfest, frontal armor... you know who wins.
cromwell - same as t85 but easier since even lower pen values
jackson - flank/first shot equals win. again also utility. jackson is purely AT.
and churchill - you're going to mention this piece of crap here? nobody even builds them anymore. was triple nerfed, cost, armor, hp. just a damage sponge.

100% of the time. i would pick a panther over any of those you listed.

comet - about the same but who's shots bounce more?
firefly - like jackson but will lose in a straight out slugfest. however has longer utility in team games with like 90% pen and i guess tulips.
pershing - now who's comparing a heavy vs medium? pershing should win but barely
is2 - i'm not sure how this fight will play out. been a lonnggggggggg time since i used is2

above are situational on how you play against these tanks

i feel this is more bait to get people to reply than anything else.

tbh, Fam; idc about ur reply all that much.


0 ostheer 1v1s

0 ostheer 2v2s

no axis 2v2 AT's in the past century

no cred. nothing. Basically a 4v4 player telling me to l2p in a mode and situation youve actually never played. unbelievable. If anything, you're baiting me right now and ofc im taking it like the asshat i am.

3/4 allied armor cant penetrate, well based off what i see, the following are a match for if not better than the panther

-Su76
-Su85
-T3485
-IS2
-Cromwell at closer ranges
-Firefly
-Comet
-Jackson
-Pershing
*churchill on closer maps

'a match for' implies a straight up fight, of which only the Pershing and IS-2 will beat the panther (+ Firefly if it lands both Tulips and doesn't get turret kited to death), everything else has to act in a supporting or flanking role with other units screening and spotting.

Try to 1v1 a panther with a Comet and see how that turns out.

SU-76 is ' a match for if not better than the panther'. Totally


If you seriously think Ostheer is 'On life support' I'd suggest trying to watch some ESL, as you'll see it's clearly not the case. Most of Ost's issues stem from other factions' units - i.e. fuel cost of AEC/Cromwell, but unlike those factions, Ost doesn't need to rely on OP stuff as a crutch.

If Ostheer is on life support, then soviets are dead and buried.

well placed pak with a gren covering the rear for a faust will do the job. People who talk about sight... well that's why I use vision blockers like buildings and trees. they always want to flank the pak, so I just predict the route/area he'll send his AEC. I actually let my pak shoot infantry just so he knows which way it's facing and bait him in the direction i want.

You know if brit rushes AEC, he'll probably have only 3 infantry units at best assuming he has half the map. I'm sure OST is UP in 1v1 but its units are still good.

Nobody said that ostheer lack of counters to light vehicules. Thing is that EVERY fraction has a shock units (m20, stuart, AEC, p2, t70, m5 etc) only ostheer doesn't. So we are basicly trying to find a solution to this.

If Ostheer is on life support, then soviets are dead and buried.

Lel, only thing wrong with soviet is tier 1, mostly penals.

Nobody said that ostheer lack of counters to light vehicules. Thing is that EVERY fraction has a shock units (m20, stuart, AEC, p2, t70, m5 etc) only ostheer doesn't. So we are basicly trying to find a solution to this.

Yes, i agree and perhaps is better on another thread since this thread is hard to believe when thread creator thinks panther sucks more than every allied tank. LAWL

'a match for' implies a straight up fight, of which only the Pershing and IS-2 will beat the panther (+ Firefly if it lands both Tulips and doesn't get turret kited to death), everything else has to act in a supporting or flanking role with other units screening and spotting.

Try to 1v1 a panther with a Comet and see how that turns out.

SU-76 is ' a match for if not better than the panther'. Totally


If you seriously think Ostheer is 'On life support' I'd suggest trying to watch some ESL, as you'll see it's clearly not the case. Most of Ost's issues stem from other factions' units - i.e. fuel cost of AEC/Cromwell, but unlike those factions, Ost doesn't need to rely on OP stuff as a crutch.

since the su76 costs a third and can frontally penetrate it, yes.

since the comet can shoot 1st 90% of the time, yes its better.

Obviously im not referring to a vacuum fight. In that case the panther is even worse.

where can I find the esl casts?

Lel, only thing wrong with soviet is tier 1, mostly penals.

And vet abilities, lol those flares...
and b4
and late game armour
and t34/76
and kv1/2
and dshk/m42
and useless commanders
and useles/broken commander abilities
and not working AA

All of that with all the elite infantry and reliably armour locked behind commanders and without AT infantry.

Think about osther without PG Phanters downgraded P4 and you have pretty much the soviet faction.

since the su76 costs a third and can frontally penetrate it, yes.

since the comet can shoot 1st 90% of the time, yes its better.

Obviously im not referring to a vacuum fight. In that case the panther is even worse.

where can I find the esl casts?

SU-76 is a tank destroyer, panther is a tank...

Put these two together.

By your standards, Puma is superior to sherman EZ8 and T34/85, because it can penetrate them.

While you're on that topic, is it just me or does IS2 absoulutely poop on the tiger?

As long as the IS-2 is standing completely still, otherwise it's going to miss from what I've seen.

If the tiger was slow but had churchill like armor, then it would be be worth shit. right now its not bad but its definitely not allied level of strength unless its the Ace, which is the only tiger I see that actually does anything most times. which is sad.

I certainly can't speak to how the Tiger performs at the highest levels of play (my best 1v1 is ~450 USF) other than what I've seen of ESL, Dane's casts, etc. The Tiger ALWAYS seems to have a big impact in 1v1s unless the game is already hopelessly lost. A lot of players seem to rely on the Tiger (considering it's available in what... ~5+ commanders?) rather than teching to T4 since Ostheer tech is so cost prohibitive.

pershing is a medium for all intents and purposes, its more comparable to the comet and panther.

For all "intents and purposes" except cost, considering the Pershing is obviously priced like a heavy. I love the thing, think it's a great unit and it's fun to have a heavy w/ a different flavor than the other factions, but the guy said "heavy tanks should be able to take a beating." If we're talking heavies e.g. units that are priced accordingly, obviously that isn't true for the Pershing.

High speed is the quickest way to death usually, what are you gonna use the speed for? running over mines faster while you over extend with your expensive ass panther? or for reversing away like the bitch that the panther is.

As a good USF player, I don't understand how you can argue that high mobility is somehow a bad thing...

3/4 allied armor cant penetrate, well based off what i see, the following are a match for if not better than the panther

-Su76
-Su85
-T3485
-IS2
-Cromwell at closer ranges
-Firefly
-Comet
-Jackson
-Pershing
*churchill on closer maps

I feel like you're losing a bit of credibility to suggest that the Su-76 is a "match or better" for the Panther. It's a paper-armor, fixed turret assault gun that yes, can be spammed, but would require no less than 3 of them to kill one (unsupported) Panther.

The Panther has 320 ARMOR!!! IIRC, it's the best in the game, bar none. Every unit has its trade offs and I don't understand what more you want from this tank destroyer. If you make it better against infantry (since it's already OK w/ MG upgrade), then you need to buff the Allied TDs vs. infantry as well.

yes it is

Well I guess we'll have to disagree. I don't know how you make these already high health, high armor units more survivable than they already are without breaking the game.

And vet abilities, lol those flares...
and b4
and late game armour
and t34/76
and kv1/2
and dshk/m24
and useless commanders
and useles/broken commander abilities
and not working AA

All of that with all the elite infantry and reliably armour locked behind commanders and without AT infantry.

Think about osther without PG Phanters downgraded P4 and you have pretty much the soviet faction.

yeah and ost doesnt have useless commanders Late game armour...SU-85's, ISU, IS-2.

T34 is indeed crappy. B4 could need a bit precision buff but then everyone will just use it to pwn okw so hard okw gets useless again. KV1/2 i don't see a problem with it.

SU-76 is ' a match for if not better than the panther'. Totally

Haha, this OP is delusional. I don't care if he is high ranked or not. SU-76 compared to a Panther.. yeah.

Buffing the Panther would make it OP. It already has enough anti-inf capability with the MGs and needless to say, it wrecks tanks and has great armor. What more could you ask for......

yeah and ost doesnt have useless commanders Late game armour...SU-85's, ISU, IS-2.

T34 is indeed crappy. B4 could need a bit precision buff but then everyone will just use it to pwn okw so hard okw gets useless again. KV1/2 i don't see a problem with it.

There is one big difference, soviets NEED commanders to be reliable, and there is 3 of them more or less. osther is quite good without commanders.

Late game armour: su85 is situational in a lot of maps it just sucks bad, and by itself its not that good until vet 3 if it survives that long. ISU is in a weird spot and is2 needs some tweeks. Not to mention the is2 barely wins the panther 1vs1 and those 2 units are locked behind commander, if you don't choose them you are toast, also panther is not doctrinal.
Kv1 is like a churchill with a lot worst stats and vet abilities for almost the same price, kv2 has less range than a su 76 barrage, and miss everything even in normal mode.