Ostheer is on life support

I would like to start by saying yes, i am a known usf fanboy. No, this thread isnt troll.

Ostheer and brits are my favorite factions after usf, i love these two because of theyre AMAZING combined arms design, their abilities and units, etc.

But thats not the point. I would like to bring up the question as to why ostheer cant be more like brits.

Not with more emplacements, dont get it twisted.
but with other things.

Ostheer and brits play very similarly, obviously not including emplacements, but there are key aspects missing in ostheers favor:

• Light vehicles
  The brits have the AEC, why can't ostheer have a panzer 3 that can self spot for all these suppport weapons and give recon or something? Why cant the 222's 20mm cannon at least scare an AEC or stuart away? Why does the 222 lose to a 3 man half health rifle squad with one AT nade? Does a luchs lose to one conscript? Does a stuart lose to one grenadier? Does the AEC lose to one volksgrenadier? Why is 222 getting rekt like this?
  
  Is the Panzer III model is bugged or something and thats why It hasnt been released? Can the puma come at 3CP? DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR VEHICLES, i think I heard ostheer's heart rate slowing as i type this.
  
  good lord, ostheer fails like boiled shit when light vehicles roll out and alot of it is because theyure just missing a counter play vehicle. Grens are fine, mg42 is fine, sniper is fine, mortar is fine, the paks great, the 250 is awesome, and the 222 gives great sight and utility.
  
  but holy shit, I cant use any of this when I have to worry about that ugly ass AEC/m20/stuart coming in and ruining it all in one go. This wasnt a problem when the stuart had 320 hp, or when the aEC was a piece of shiet. Do something about it. I can hear ostheers breath getting softer and softer. Listen to me relic.
  
  and Inb4 some nerd comes in here and tells me to plant a teller. Guess what, nerd, if I plant a teller and hes not an idjit, and he's top 50 and buys sweepers, then what? What if I finish the teller and an AEC comes flying out of nowhere and shoots my pioneers on top of the teller a second after I place it? Stfu. Mines dont counter shit.
  
• Unit and commander abilities
  
  The cromwell seems really strong vs ostheer armor, everything. I think because of the commander upgrade ability which allows you to literally attack move any target and get the first shot in because of the extended sight. If the Germans were known for their amazing tank commanders and coordination, why dont they have a tank commander upgrade that does a similar thing too? This would be a huge buff to the P4 vs sherman/cromwell matchup. The sherman has the penetration advantage and the cromwell has the first AND more accurate shot(s). So let the P4 have something. Right now its a piece of shit and a joke. And its really funny when it fights against comets and stuff, its like a T34-76 fighting an Abrams tank.
  
  
  the panther, why the fuck does the comet raep infantry the way it does, from 50 range and with phosphorus (AND THE COMMANDER UPGRADE ?) Meanwhile, the panther is basically ignored by infantry? give it some anti infantry ability please, this isnt 2013 anymore. The allies have stuff to kill panthers now.
  
  The panther is literally not shit now and its sad. It was funny at brit release but now its just said. Buff the panther.
  
  The tiger, reduce its range back to 40. that was a dumb idea. Just make it slow, give it actual armor, take blitzkrieg away and replace with KT spearhead abilty.(btw still not an OKW thread but fix that fucking ability on the KT its still worse than the main attack for some reason)
  
  My other gripe and final gripe, Brits get artilery cover+forward HQ anti infantry strafe+a recon ability(try it if you have the munitions), ok fine, why is sector artillery or stuka loiterSO SHIT in comparison? (this thread still isnt about OKW, but buff zeroing artillery too)
  
  I love these stalemate back-breaker abilities, they create awesome visuals and moments late game and, well break stalemates...but lets make them all equal, or nerf them all. whatever, but do something about it.
  
  
  
  Right now, ostheer is truly on life support(the panzerwerfer) and I think theyre about to die. So can we please do something and help ostheer out. I cant play them, and no one else will play them. And its a shame because I like them alot, theyre design is great, and so is there concept overall. Fix the power creep and buff them to be like brits please.
  
  
  endrant and thx
  

Wehrmacht on life support? Thanks for the laugh.

My other gripe and final gripe, Brits get artilery cover+forward HQ anti infantry strafe+a recon ability(try it if you have the munitions), ok fine, why is sector artillery or stuka loiterSO SHIT in comparison? (this thread still isnt about OKW, but buff zeroing artillery too)

Soviet IL-2 loiter is still crying FYI.

Ostheer with a nondoctrinal potent anti everything light vehicle will have absolutely everything. Every faction lacks some important thing in its nondoctrinsl roster. For Ostheer, it is the light vehicle.

What if Ostheer had a regular stubby barrel Panzer 4 or StuG in their tech tree?

Ostheer only problem is all their infantry being inferior to osttruppen.

Also, lets make all factions same, its no longer 2013. Right? Riiiiiiiight?

If you take the Ostheer sniper out you might be right. But with the sniper I feel like Ostheer is still super strong.

I do think its rather annoying to see Mobile Defense in 90% of games. Wich might indicate a problem, yes.

I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Panzer III is super lame and what is really needed is a Hotchkiss.

If you take the Ostheer sniper out you might be right. But with the sniper I feel like Ostheer is still super strong.

I do think its rather annoying to see Mobile Defense in 90% of games. Wich might indicate a problem, yes.

The one thing in all of Ostheer that is genuinely broken are...drumroll...prosttruppen. Especially if you try and play Sov/USF non meta. Apart from that, OH is pretty darn underwhelming in 1s.

The brits have the AEC, why can't ostheer have a panzer 3 that can self spot for all these suppport weapons and give recon or something? Why cant the 222's 20mm cannon at least scare an AEC or stuart away? Why does the 222 lose to a 3 man half health rifle squad with one AT nade? Does a luchs lose to one conscript? Does a stuart lose to one grenadier? Does the AEC lose to one volksgrenadier? Why is 222 getting rekt like this?

Is the Panzer III model is bugged or something and thats why It hasnt been released? Can the puma come at 3CP? DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR VEHICLES, i think I heard ostheer's heart rate slowing as i type this.

good lord, ostheer fails like boiled shit when light vehicles roll out and alot of it is because theyure just missing a counter play vehicle. Grens are fine, mg42 is fine, sniper is fine, mortar is fine, the paks great, the 250 is awesome, and the 222 gives great sight and utility.

but holy shit, I cant use any of this when I have to worry about that ugly ass AEC/m20/stuart coming in and ruining it all in one go. This wasnt a problem when the stuart had 320 hp, or when the aEC was a piece of shiet. Do something about it. I can hear ostheers breath getting softer and softer. Listen to me relic.

I do agree with this point. 222 fills a roll that's not needed while Wehrmacht early game is getting rolled over by Allied light armor play. Mines are not the solution either, as they rely just as much on luck as wiping squads with grenades. Pak 40s, while in theory should work, tend to either get rolled up by infantry or circle strafed by vehicles.

I used to think the 222 needed a buff. Now I say give Ost their own light tank. If Pzr III is too powerful for the tier then make it a reserve pzr II or 38t.

The cromwell seems really strong vs ostheer armor, everything. I think because of the commander upgrade ability which allows you to literally attack move any target and get the first shot in because of the extended sight. If the Germans were known for their amazing tank commanders and coordination, why dont they have a tank commander upgrade that does a similar thing too? This would be a huge buff to the P4 vs sherman/cromwell matchup. The sherman has the penetration advantage and the cromwell has the first AND more accurate shot(s). So let the P4 have something. Right now its a piece of shit and a joke. And its really funny when it fights against comets and stuff, its like a T34-76 fighting an Abrams tank.

This is where I disagree with you, and it all comes down to expecting the panzer iv to be on par with Cromwells and Comets.

While the panzer IV in real life was a solid tank for fighting other medium armor, it's spot currently in the game is a MOBILE UTILITY TANK. It probably has the best combination of armor, AI, AT, and mobility for it's price tag, while also having veterancy that carries it into the late game.

If you need to fight off medium armor, Stugs, pak40s, and panthers are all there. Pzr 4s are just fine the way they are.

the panther, why the fuck does the comet raep infantry the way it does, from 50 range and with phosphorus (AND THE COMMANDER UPGRADE ?) Meanwhile, the panther is basically ignored by infantry? give it some anti infantry ability please, this isnt 2013 anymore. The allies have stuff to kill panthers now.

The panther is literally not shit now and its sad. It was funny at brit release but now its just said. Buff the panther.

Do you not understand what role the panther plays in this game? It is a Head-to-Head tank. It's job is to slug it out with enemy armor and have a reasonable chance of winning, while also keeping the mobility of earlier pzrs to take advantage of breakthroughs. It's not supposed to be good against infantry, Ostheer has THREE other tanks for this!

If the average Ostheer did anything other than spam panthers, they would realize this.

The tiger, reduce its range back to 40. that was a dumb idea. Just make it slow, give it actual armor, take blitzkrieg away and replace with KT spearhead abilty.(btw still not an OKW thread but fix that fucking ability on the KT its still worse than the main attack for some reason)

Why fix what isn't broken.

My other gripe and final gripe, Brits get artilery cover+forward HQ anti infantry strafe+a recon ability(try it if you have the munitions), ok fine, why is sector artillery or stuka loiterSO SHIT in comparison? (this thread still isnt about OKW, but buff zeroing artillery too)

I love these stalemate back-breaker abilities, they create awesome visuals and moments late game and, well break stalemates...but lets make them all equal, or nerf them all. whatever, but do something about it.

While I agree on the Sector artillery, I'm pretty sure the stuka loiter works well enough the way it is.

Right now, ostheer is truly on life support(the panzerwerfer) and I think theyre about to die. So can we please do something and help ostheer out. I cant play them, and no one else will play them. And its a shame because I like them alot, theyre design is great, and so is there concept overall. Fix the power creep and buff them to be like brits please.


endrant and thx

You do realize that most Ostheer players say that the panzerwerfer is shit, right?

Furthermore, how exactly can you judge a faction that you can't even play right now? I play Ostheer quite a bit, and while the going does get tough it's still very much viable.

Besides, why the fuck should Ostheer be like brits when they have superior German engineering?

I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Panzer III is super lame and what is really needed is a Hotchkiss.

Fuck the hotchkiss. My grandmother's car has more armor than that thing.

Fuck the hotchkiss. My grandmother's car has more armor than that thing.

It's a light tank, it's not going to bounce anything anyways.

You do realize that most Ostheer players say that the panzerwerfer is shit, right?

Nobody says this. Ostheer players are very aware that it is good, they say it is fine if anything.

Fuck the hotchkiss. My grandmother's car has more armor than that thing.

I always wondered if he was saying wagen for car or wagon like a garden wagon. 'Cause either interpretation is still pretty funny.

Good points on units that needs some love.

Give 222 same armor as frontal panther armor, and now the game is balanced.

I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Panzer III is super lame and what is really needed is a Hotchkiss.

+1 Hotchkiss

Honestly, I just think the Ostheer's 222 needs a buff/ scaling up. They're currently far too vulnerable to the units they're meant to counter and currently shouldn't be a threat to 70 fuel light vehicles. Scale them to 30/40 fuel and adjust their performance to match and you'll have a solid AI harass unit that can really give Grens the kick they need and threaten T70s/Stuarts/AECs they manage to flank.

I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Panzer III is super lame and what is really needed is a Hotchkiss.

Why excuse me sir, I do believe you are mistaken.

I don't agree with everything you're said but it's true that Ostheer are struggling a bit in 1v1. Without getting too much into what I've already said in other threads:

1. Ostheer has a ton of crappy doctrines with most of the worthwhile ones being premium. With drops so rare these days you have to work with sub-par doctrines unless you shell out more cash. Most doctrines just enhance what's there, they don't add extra options so the number of strategies in the current meta is small, making it easy for opponents to figure out your strategy. This issue can really apply to all factions though.

2. Tech costs and time requirements are high which makes getting to t3/4 difficult. Having to both pay the research cost then build the building reduces your flexibility because you can't easily save that fuel and put it into something else if need be.

3. Ostheer are the only well designed faction without any major weaknesses so as such they don't have to rely on certain very strong units to make up for their shortcomings in other areas. This makes them feel like they lack that 'wow' factor, and makes it harder for them to take the initiative and force a response from the opponent.

Ostheer don't need a radical change, let's not forget about all the good things about the faction. A 5 or 10 fuel reduction in the research costs and time for t3 would help get that first stug onto the field. While this does create the concern of a faster t4, I'd argue that'll be less of an issue when the pzwerfer gets nerfed again.

As for the 222, I still don't think it needs a buff to its anti-armour performance. OH has plenty of soft tools for fending off AT until the stug arrives. If I absolutely had to do anything to it, I'd boost its performance against snipers and maybe a slight increase in the 2cm damage against vehicles so it can threaten light tanks from the rear.

In 1v1, OH is actually OP as heck with Prosttruppen abuse vs US. (and only vs US, Soviets can pretty easily counter this) Its unfortunate that OH core is so weak, but the answer to that should not be the strengthening of generic cheese strats.