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Latch's 15 Suggestions To Balance COH2

21 Jan 2016, 17:43 PM
#21
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 16:33 PMLatch
So, rather than I agree/I disagree/TL;DR etc, what about an actual discussion as to why you think that, or, has this forum turned into the steam forums... ?

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 13:35 PMLatch
...
TLDR; I hate OKW ...

Your own TL;DR stated "i hate OKW", and it shows... A LOT. So what kind of discussion do you expect to have after this rant?
21 Jan 2016, 17:47 PM
#22
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 543

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 13:35 PMLatch
1: Flames

A) Flame grenades are far too effective (...)

Considering the mechanics of the game, as far as I understand, flames are the tool of choice for MG dislodgment. Also, the developers want to avoid the situation that could lead to a invincible hut with a MG dominating a large area of map. This is particularly troublesome if you want to attack a different area of the map that is poorly guarded, and a parked MG can bring frustrating game issues. Hence, I think flames are OK as are.

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2: Stun Grenade
(...)
Solution - Remove the damage inflicted by the grenade.

I don't know its cost right now. I see it as a buying time grenade or a go-to-your-base-now grenade. I could agree with this.

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3: OKW Flak HT

(...)

A lot of people give some suggestions about the Flak HQ. I don't think that this is an issue.

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4: OKW Base defenses

(...)

Solution - Remove the chance to pen vehicles, keep the AI but completely remove vehicle damage.

Back when OKW had reduced resources, I'd be against this, but now, I think that would be OK. BUT, this change possibly could change the chances of downing allies' airplanes. Could become a new balance issue.

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5: Axis off maps

(...)

Not an issue on my POV.

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6: LeIG

(...)

Solution - Reduce the accuracy of the LeIG dramatically at range or simply, bring the range in line with other mortars

I could think about giving it the same range as other mortars, but that's it. Also, the change should happen to Pack Howie as well.

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7: Bofors Garrison Ability

(...)

Not an issue on my POV

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8: Rocket Artillery Units

(...)

Solution - All Rocket Artillery should serve as a 'Get out of this area' weapon (...)

This is a definition issue. All rocket artillery is, actually, a Johnnie Walker Scotch propaganda - "Keep Walking". You should not be static by the time this type of weapon comes around. And yes, this is hard, and should be that way - the longer the game, the harder it gets.

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9: OKW Base Trucks

(...)

Solution - Just as the trucks can be damaged during setup and that is then applied to the building, do the same for the truck and apply any damage caused by it to transfer to the building/setup stage.

Could agree with this

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10: AT Squad upgrades

(...)

I use racketens all the time, they are very good. Also, mines. No circle strafe with mines.

Anyway, I can't agree with anything here. The only thing that I noticed recently is that the schreks kinda snipe a little too much infantry for my taste, but that's it.


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11: Scavange

(...)

Not an issue in my POV.

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12: Kubel

(...)

I'd agree that the Kubel got a little irritating. I can't understand the 15% cap bonus, which seems injury added to the insult.

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13: King Tiger

(...)

Not an issue in my POV

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14: UKF Heavies

(...)

Disagree

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15: Blobbing

(...)

I don't think blobbing is an issue. It has strengths and limitations, and happens in pratically every computer game conceived by man. Also, people did blob a lot in real life, or else we wouldn't see so many monuments about lifes lost during WW1, just to pick one example. Problem is, learning to counter a blob is a little more tricky... But doable.

Cheers
21 Jan 2016, 18:11 PM
#23
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 17:43 PMkamk


Your own TL;DR stated "i hate OKW", and it shows... A LOT. So what kind of discussion do you expect to have after this rant?


Detecting humor and wit is your strong point I see, take a leaf out of Jedi's book and see the kind of response my suggestion asked for.

The TLDR was a foresight into the responses I would receive, the spoiler is true. Anyway, on topic:

Jedi thanks for the response, I know what you are saying with the flame based weapons but you literally have no time to react before you lose the squad, especially to the Flame HT. Flame nades if you get out as its being thrown (arguments sake an MG) by the time its deconstructed and out of the building, one or two models are dead and the rest have very little health.

That is why I suggested a reaction period where you can actually escape the building before receiving a stupid amount of damage to the unit. I know grenades can kill models just as effectively but they have A) A timer; B) No lingering after effects and C) A chance to only remove health and not kill a model.

The blobbing is again where I disagree, I'd rather keep real life out of it due to it becoming a straw man but to counter the example, how much easier would a blob of infantry to hit and how hard would it be to shoot if you were in the middle of the blob.

Also, just because blobbing happens doesn't mean it shouldn't be punished by the games mechanics.

EDIT: Oh and yes of course the same applies to the Pack Howie, I just forgot it existed XD
21 Jan 2016, 18:22 PM
#24
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

Almost all suggestions are nerf axis.

Sorry , but these are not main game problems.



I would be for removing maxim death loop for turning flamies into fresh bathwater im not only because maxim have death loop.


Similar statement are about other suggstions , shame i dont have time to write them all.



HINT: PLAY BOTH SIDES, PLAYERS WONT CALL YOU FANBOY + YOU CAN MAKE BETTER SUGGESTIONS
21 Jan 2016, 18:26 PM
#25
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
Sorry but, while I dont agree with some of the design aspects of okw. They aren't the always OP axis faction people like fall back on.
21 Jan 2016, 18:42 PM
#26
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 543

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 18:11 PMLatch

Jedi thanks for the response, I know what you are saying with the flame based weapons but you literally have no time to react before you lose the squad, especially to the Flame HT. Flame nades if you get out as its being thrown (arguments sake an MG) by the time its deconstructed and out of the building, one or two models are dead and the rest have very little health.

(...)


The game rewards good use of infantry play. A MG inside a house can be very powerful, I think that if you manage to get close to it - either with units or with a flame vehicle - you should be rewarded.

The blobbing is again where I disagree, I'd rather keep real life out of it due to it becoming a straw man but to counter the example, how much easier would a blob of infantry to hit and how hard would it be to shoot if you were in the middle of the blob.


I just brought the real life stuff because it's not a tactic that works just in computer games. Anyway, every time I lost to a blobber, looking at replay I clearly see that I lacked the necessary skills or made wrong decisions that led to my doom. I don't know, this is just me.

At my current level, I usually lose because:
- I'm slow as f***
- Don't practice much
- Don't "study" my games or watch a lot of replays to see where people get it right or wrong
- Don't care about the meta
- Don't use hotkeys or keybindings

Balance is the least of my problems. And I say, having played the game since the beginning, I think balance right now is pretty good.
21 Jan 2016, 18:48 PM
#27
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

When did I ever say they were OP? Also where did I state it was main game problems? Imbalance with any faction is a main game problem even if it was.

Anyway, deny that this isn't far too effective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73V85WLFlLc&feature=youtu.be

Ignore the variables I know you are all jumping at "They should retreat sooner" etc and focus completely on the time it takes to wipe a squad. It is near enough the same time it takes to exit the building with an MG.

"Almost all suggestions are nerf axis."

About 9/15 are so just over half, not exactly almost all now is it.

I don't want to play as axis, I have done in private games and as I said before, I've watched a lot of games (usually my own replays) from the axis perspective so I have a fair grasp of what their strengths and weaknesses are. Call me an allied "Fan boy" all you want, it doesn't mean it's true, each point was looked at from a purely neutral viewpoint demonstrated with several points aimed at the allies. I am capable of doing this, you may be too, not saying you aren't, but just because I 'Don't play' as axis doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: @Jedi I agree that getting close to an MG should be rewarded, but when the MG's axis face don't pin until it's too late there isn't much skill involved in waiting for them to get into flame grenade range, I believe the Molotov has a shorter range and a longer animation too despite the MG42 being far superior at stopping such an act take place.
21 Jan 2016, 19:29 PM
#28
avatar of Swift

Posts: 2723 | Subs: 1

Playing against is never the same as playing the faction to properly understand it. I've been watching a lot of House of Cards recently and I'm slowly understanding the US political process, but it doesn't mean I necessarily know how Congress works from a first hand perspective.

It's a loose analogy I know, but it's similar to the idea that you never know until you've tried. It's really easy once you have established an argument to defend it to the last, but if your argument is met with a lot of resistance the adaptive thing to do is change it to meet the standards others set for you, rather than attack their evidence to suit your original theories.

*Really hoping that made sense*
21 Jan 2016, 19:36 PM
#29
avatar of tenid

Posts: 232

Some good suggestions in there, others I don't agree with. Either way credit for the formatting and tone.

With regards to the Churchill and the "heavy limit", don't consider it a strict out and out rule. There's a reason why some vehicles are limited and others aren't - and it comes down to the weapon rather than the armour. The limit was originally introduced because it was becoming too common and powerful to spam end game call in heavies - the likes of the ISU, IS-2, Tiger etc. The Churchill will never have the punch that these have - and it also requires teching which the call in heavies didn't. Limiting Churchill's to 1, even if buffed, would leave it a worthless choice.

Have to agree with the ISG being a pain though.
21 Jan 2016, 19:40 PM
#30
avatar of Plaguer

Posts: 498

I agree on the base defenses, it's stupid that you can't chase anything in their base, unless you have a IS2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 17:42 PMLatch


*Online against randoms.

Unless you mean that Shreck blobs are so fundamental to axis playstyle that it needs to remain the same, or that the LeIG guns range and accuracy is fine just the way it is, so on and so forth then I fail to see how you can't agree with my points.

Believe it or not I didn't just cherry pick features that would benefit my faction but opted for the ones that are completely broken within the games design and even relics own 'goal'. How do I know this? I'm a games designer :P

OKW having no need to build dedicated AT platforms or AA with the ability to destroy tanks and aircraft is complete and utterly broken. That, you don't need to play as Axis to see.

Edit: For example, what is wrong with my observation of stun grenades killing as well as stunning units? Even the description states it just stuns (iirc)...

"Nope"


Being a game designer doesn't mean that you instantly know these changes are good, maybe make a mod and test it out since you got the skills I recon

But for the real part, you're not seeing both sides of this thing, you're seeing everything from the allied point of view, these things are completely different from the axis point of view, I can just go on saying that "Maxims are op because they stop inf, they should be nerfed to the ground because I can't blob" because I don't realize that they're a must for the faction currently

Go and play around 100 games as both ostheer and okw proof that these changes are needed
21 Jan 2016, 19:48 PM
#31
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 19:29 PMSwift
Playing against is never the same as playing the faction to properly understand it. I've been watching a lot of House of Cards recently and I'm slowly understanding the US political process, but it doesn't mean I necessarily know how Congress works from a first hand perspective.

It's a loose analogy I know, but it's similar to the idea that you never know until you've tried. It's really easy once you have established an argument to defend it to the last, but if your argument is met with a lot of resistance the adaptive thing to do is change it to meet the standards others set for you, rather than attack their evidence to suit your original theories.

*Really hoping that made sense*


What evidence? That's my point there has been no 'evidence' to state WHY it's a 'bad' idea just a simple, no or don't like it.

The analogy is pointless, I can counter it instantly by saying I know nothing of American Football but if I watched the amount of games I watch of COH2 and read up on it as much, I could play it for the first time and know everything about it. That's why analogies are bad.

I specifically state in the opening statement to correct me/add discuss my points, I have yet to see a valid reason as to why one of my points is bad apart from tenid's post about the heavies and my back and forth with Jedi.

I am hardly attacking anyone's 'evidence' as very little has been offered. I didn't expect anyone to agree with all of my points, I knew people would be up in arms about certain parts of it and I explicitly state where and when an aspect I fell needs changing is down to my own personal feeling and not something for the greater good.

You respond to one of my points describing why it's bad, I will reply with a counter or agreement, if the former it cycles back until an agreement or a refusal to agree has occurred, that's not attacking 'evidence' that's a discussion/debate.

If you like analogies, here is a good one:

I don't play football (soccer), I don't watch it or read about it, but I know it needs referees to watch footage of an incident to reduce the number of cheaters/divers etc. But, I guess I shouldn't be allowed that opinion as I don't play football.

@Plaguer My being a games designer does indeed not mean that my proposals are good or any better than anyone else's, it simply shows (or at least, should) that I have a greater understanding for the aspect of games design in general than the average player and that I'm not just spouting out one sided pish.

Again, I really don't get the instant dismissal due to me not playing axis, the points I gave are observations that are clearly over/under performing or simply broken.

Why should a truck that has a fraction of health left then be able to transform into a full health structure? Where is the punishment for being caught with the truck out in the open? I don't need to play OKW to see this flaw, or should I be grateful it exists to lessen the risk of using said truck forward.

OKW not needing dedicated AT, again, why do I need to play as OKW using this tactic to see that it works far too well and negates the need for AT when I am the player that it gets used against/watches the replays, with the only difference being, I didn't click where the unit should go/attack.

Why do I need to play axis to see that the mobile arty is overperforming, especially when compared with the Katy?

Why do I need to play OKW to see that a Kubel capping points whilst my infantry does what its made for and fight, only on the front lines of the enemy, is or is not bad design and needs changing?

Why do I need to play axis to see that my blobbing 'fix' is good or bad?

Rinse and repeat for 90% of my points.

EDIT: Oh and #5, how can anyone be against that change? Honestly.
21 Jan 2016, 20:02 PM
#32
avatar of edibleshrapnel

Posts: 552

Christ man why ya got to hate on the Kubel. YOU WANT TO GIVE IT'S SUPPRESSION BACK?!? :sibWaddle:
21 Jan 2016, 20:05 PM
#33
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

Christ man why ya got to hate on the Kubel. YOU WANT TO GIVE IT'S SUPPRESSION BACK?!? :sibWaddle:


Ha, I would rather the suppression than it's capping ability, but I did state a greater time to actually pin a squad unlike before where it would pin like an MG42.

De-cap? Fair enough, but cap AND faster than infantry for both capping and speed? A bit much.
21 Jan 2016, 20:17 PM
#34
avatar of 5trategos

Posts: 449

From a design perspective, some of what you write makes sense. But from a balance perspective, almost every suggestion is an OKW nerf. The problem is the axis factions aren't doing that well in 1v1 automatch from what we know (see coh2chart.com), so suggesting more nerfs at this stage is unwarranted.

If you rephrase your suggestions from a design aspect, you might get more constructive feedback:
eg.: Some offmaps can be targeted into enemy base sectors while others can't. The lack of consistency is confusing. There's no way to know beforehand if the ability will be allowed or not.

Relic needs to homogenize offmap behavior in base sectors or find some way to make it clearer to the player which abilities are allowed in base sectors and which aren't.
21 Jan 2016, 20:41 PM
#35
avatar of The amazing Chandler

Posts: 1355

He is calling it the best indirect unit, intentionally ignoring the USF Pack HueHue which is SkillShotting grens on a regular basis.


1 Pew, 4 models gone.


#PackHueHue

#OPKW OP lelic nerf When


And the LEIG does not do that?

1 pew 4 models gone, the 2 survivors retreat. Next pew, the same. And bingo, you have map control!
The only difference is that WEHR has 4 man squads.
And if you compare them, the LEIG is better because of the extra range.
21 Jan 2016, 20:42 PM
#36
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

What I personally think of your 15 points

1 - Disagree, definitely with the proposed system of flame damage. When it comes to having not enough time to react, the only solution is to scout ahead and ungarrison before they get roasted in buildings. I'm sorry, thats how CoH and CoH2 tends to work, esp since these units specifically hardcounter units in buildings.

2 - Could work, but maybe increase duration of stun as well to compensate.

3 - Yes, in fact, I feel AAA should be taken away along with the ones in base building. You're essentially being rewarded for the wrong things like maintaining your base sector or teching and as a result a lot of Allied air support is nullified while other ppl have to build their own AAA.

4 - Crommie/Sher does work against OKW base defences because you can shoot the base defences out, they're really squishy. To not expect a 20mm or 33mm gun to have some pennetration potential though is historically inaccurate.

5 - Maybe the ridiculously strong ones like Railway or air strafe but most can be targeted in Axis bases, especially Soviet ones. I'd be happy if they took Railway out of "can be placed in Allied base" though.

6 - Nope, LEIG has been nerfed already. And emplacements are still going to be useful because it takes ages for emplacements to die to LEIG. At the end of the day, LEIG can be decrewed easily if out of position, emplacements can invariably never be decrewed.

7 - Yeah that'll be good

8 - Rocket Arty and Arty in general are in a bad place in the game. Units like Katy simply do not do their job. I feel that damage output of the Katy should be buffed, but I feel the pzwerfer and stuka should stay as they are and other Allied Rocket arty should catch up to it.

9 - I agree, although truck during construction tends to be easy to damage and kill if overextended.

10 - Shrecks are good, but are more inaccurate than AT. One reason Raks aren't used so much is because that range. But I agree Brit infantry AT abilities are in a bad place right now, an AT nade would be nice on brits.

As to your proposals, probably not, you need some counterplay for inf vs tanks.

11 - Yep, I've always found salvaging team weapons a bizarre ability.

12 - Not really. Kubel now kinda plays like the PE vehicle, and I'm perfectly fine with that. OKW in theory should be about harrassment much like PE was.

13 - Seems a solid propsoal

14 - While I would like it, won't happen. Because in that case, everyone will always be picking hammer due to multiple comets.

15 - Needs some work to discourage blobbing, I disagree with ROF decrease but a received accuracy debuff seems like a good idea.

Thanks, that was good to read :)
21 Jan 2016, 20:50 PM
#37
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2016, 19:48 PMLatch
Again, I really don't get the instant dismissal due to me not playing axis, the points I gave are observations that are clearly over/under performing or simply broken.


Maybe they are not as clear as you might think.

*For example: you say that the ISG outranges other emplacements. I guess you are talking only about the Bofor on barrage mode cause the mortar pit outranges by 10 IIRC. The ISG gets further range when it's vet1 but only by 5.
Also, it's 330mp (?) without the capability of retreating and been effective while firing behind hedges or houses in comparison to other mortars.
Finally it's range at vet0 is comparable to the 120mm mortar.

You want a long explanation, i'll give one.

1-Flame grenade: besides the point of needing side upgrades and which ones, the incendiary nade performance is fine. It cost around the double of a molotov while having the same performance. Difference is only on throwing animation timings. It can't kill full health models on impact as it lacks the damage to do so. That's the difference between it and a normal nade.

2-IIRC it's 40dmg. Not enough to wipe full health models. Only fix it needs is the fact that it interrupts retreats orders.

3-It's been discussed the possibility of sidegrades for OKW. No need to adjust performance.

5-Bias here. Allies offmaps as well as Axis offmaps are able to target enemy bases. It's a matter of normalizing behaviour.

8-This is where lack of play show off.

"- Stuka: Slightly increase the time it takes for the rockets to land along with a reduction of the blast radius. Currently it's accuracy is perfect and it's damage is extremely high, where is it's downside?
- Panzerwerfer: Remove pin/suppression, reduce damage, and greatly reduce accuracy the further away from the target area it is.
- Katyusha: Reduce base scatter to bring it in line with the axis counterpart, reduce accuracy the further away from the target area it is, and increase the number of rockets fired in each salvo by 2."

Stuka downside is that it's predictable on where, when and how it is gonna land. Only on "tunnel" maps is good or against slow reaction support play.
The part about Katyusha and PW shows lacks of game knowledge. They are already innacurate at long range, specially into FoW. They also have different roles, as you want the PW as close as much, while you want the Katyusha at mid to long range (unless you REALLY want to destroy something specific).

PD: PW and CalliOP mid and far damage profile needs to be adjusted.

9- This was useful on the days the truck was free and used as a unit itself. After adding a cost, there's no need to waste effort in implementing this. If it could be done with a simple click, sure, but i'll rather have Relic focus on something else.

10- Maybe this is a problem of game design at really low levels and teamgames (blobs been effective in comparison to effort) cause i can't agree with this
"Now ask yourself this, and be honest, when was the last time you played against OKW and saw a Raketenwerfer?
The reason is simple. Cloak, damage, suppresion and range. You need it unless you want your squads to get pushed and crushed by light vehicles or tanks.
While you might get lucky hitting with a shreck/piat/zook, that's also a weakness as you can capitalize on squads who already fire a salvo before pushing with vheicles.

PIATS been bad (or "different" at least) doesn't warrant a whole change on the infantry AT based behavior. I might only agree that xp gain could be adjusted by adding a debuff on xp gain on any unit who picks an AT weapon (besides AT rifles).

13- If the KT was scary as it used to be sure. With the increased cost and limitations, i'm not against the idea but i don't see it necessary at this moment.

14- Good micro Comets are way more scary than Churchills and i don't see a reason to limit either of them with their current performance.

15- You are a game designer. You know how many headaches would bring trying to implement this on the game.


21 Jan 2016, 21:24 PM
#38
avatar of Swift

Posts: 2723 | Subs: 1

Alright, I'll be plain about it: Play axis before commenting on axis balance, or very few will take you seriously.
21 Jan 2016, 21:32 PM
#39
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

"I don't think blobbing is an issue. It has strengths and limitations, and happens in pratically every computer game conceived by man. Also, people did blob a lot in real life, or else we wouldn't see so many monuments about lifes lost during WW1, just to pick one example. Problem is, learning to counter a blob is a little more tricky... But doable."


Hmmm... No they didn't!

There would be little need to fire on a 'blob' in real life as they'd end up killing each other so often as to require little intervention. Attacks are in line abreast for just this reason, watch Bravo Two zero for a good example of a section attack.

In game soldiers only hit the dirt when they are suppressed, in real life you spend a great deal of time on your belly hence firing from behind your own forces is a no-no, you never know when someone is going to stand up in your line of fire. Automatic weapons too will have defined arcs and will generally be used on the flanks to give freedom of fire.

Friendly fire, isn't, basically. It is barely modeled in game which results in blobbing being effective.

This is especially true for automatic weapons and some of the anti-tanks ones. Firing shrecks or fausts through your own forces would at least result in your knackers being removed by a deaf and half poisoned Sgt, same with from inside a building, you'd be as likely to kill yourself and certainly anyone behind you in the room as do damage to the enemy.

As for setting up a HMG behind your forces to advance in front of it, only if it had significant elevation relative to the advance.

Just saying...

21 Jan 2016, 21:56 PM
#40
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2

No games as axis. OPKW2gud4u :sibHyena:
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