Wehr winning all 3 games in ESL EU Finals.

Everyone is missing the point.

If Relic/Sega want CoH2 to be considered for #ESPORTS!, map choice shouldn't play such a huge role in deciding the winner. The fact that the map choices actually aided the winner is bad.

Relic needs to drop the ESL pipedream. It's pathetic. Just stick to sponsoring community tourneys.

SC2 got the same thing - some maps are very good for one specific race.

Good thing you are on point. Why should relic drop ESL pipedream? Because you say so? L-m-a-o
What if some people like the tourney so far and are really Enjoying it?

Because in a competition the odds should be as even as possible. The fact the mere map choice can have such a major factor alongside faction choice is BS. That builds alongside any imbalances there may be.

Good thing you are the first to jump down my throat again. Did I smash you one time or something? You are stalking me or something rofl.

Because Langres and Crossing are axis favored maps...

If we were to change crossing in the woods what would you change?

The game on Crossing was like slow, turtling death. Hans said something about Luvnest making a good comeback but I didn't see that as a comeback at all -- just a standard Axis camp to late game dominance. Luvnest did the Axis creep to perfection, preserving his tanks, exploiting the spotting scope mechanic. That game had no flanks, no cut-off moves. Even the snipers were used ultra-conservatively and there were no real dramatic duels. It was pretty boring to watch.

I agree that that game was boring to watch, but only because Hans did not counter the creep, he had no indirect fire. That support weapon combined arms creep benefited from dual Wehr mortars which were uncontested. Also no munitions denial gave Luvnest teller pychological advantage the T70, SU76, and Shermans were unable to do anything aggressive in Luvnest's territory.

I think the way that COH2 handles map vision is a big design problem. You have these "maphack" commander abilities (radio intercept), the occasional maphack unit (OKW searchlight HT), you have these long plane flyovers that loiter forever and give practically 100% map vision, you have these unit abilities (vet T-70, axis spotting scopes) that give huge map vision, and you don't really have any dedicated scouting units. Of all of these, I like the T-70 the best, because at least there is some skill required to get it some vet and move it around to scout effectively.

But really what's lacking is a dedicated scout -- a fragile unit that can cloak and scout the map at risk of being revealed. A unit that requires multitasking micro skill and cunning strategy to gain important intel. I would so love for all those press-a-button-for-maphacks to be nerfed and some real scouting units added. Remember the cloaked PE ketten from COH1? The snipers on hold fire behind the lines? The rare insanely micro'd vetted American jeep? I really miss those tactics in COH2. It's like a whole fantastic aspect of RTS is just gone.

If we were to change crossing in the woods what would you change?

Adapt Soviet play style to suit it, needs more support weapons and indirect fire.

The map itself is support weapon dominated, and wehr "favoured" due to its wide format being split by the bridge, and bush shot blockers creating choke points.

It's not a bad map imo, just needs a different approach at times.

I think the way that COH2 handles map vision is a big design problem. You have these "maphack" commander abilities (radio intercept), the occasional maphack unit (OKW searchlight HT), you have these long plane flyovers that loiter forever and give practically 100% map vision, you have these unit abilities (vet T-70, axis spotting scopes) that give huge map vision, and you don't really have any dedicated scouting units. Of all of these, I like the T-70 the best, because at least there is some skill required to get it some vet and move it around to scout effectively.

But really what's lacking is a dedicated scout -- a unit that can cloak and scout the map at risk of being revealed. A unit that requires multitasking micro skill and cunning strategy to gain important intel. I would so love for all those press-a-button-for-maphacks to be nerfed and some real scouting units added. Remember the cloaked PE ketten from COH1? The snipers on hold fire behind the lines? I really miss those tactics in COH2. It's like a whole fantastic aspect of RTS is just gone.

It's rare I agree with a forum post so completely, +1.

Also within what you've said is why Semois did not work as a map in CoH2.

I think the way that COH2 handles map vision is a big design problem. You have these "maphack" commander abilities (radio intercept), the occasional maphack unit (OKW searchlight HT), you have these long plane flyovers that loiter forever and give practically 100% map vision, you have these unit abilities (vet T-70, axis spotting scopes) that give huge map vision, and you don't really have any dedicated scouting units. Of all of these, I like the T-70 the best, because at least there is some skill required to get it some vet and move it around to scout effectively.

But really what's lacking is a dedicated scout -- a fragile unit that can cloak and scout the map at risk of being revealed. A unit that requires multitasking micro skill and cunning strategy to gain important intel. I would so love for all those press-a-button-for-maphacks to be nerfed and some real scouting units added. Remember the cloaked PE ketten from COH1? The snipers on hold fire behind the lines? The rare insanely micro'd vetted American jeep? I really miss those tactics in COH2. It's like a whole fantastic aspect of RTS is just gone.

You mean, like pathfinders and their rally beacons?

So you guys think what 6-8 bounces from Panther armor is ok?

I think the way that COH2 handles map vision is a big design problem. You have these "maphack" commander abilities (radio intercept), the occasional maphack unit (OKW searchlight HT), you have these long plane flyovers that loiter forever and give practically 100% map vision, you have these unit abilities (vet T-70, axis spotting scopes) that give huge map vision, and you don't really have any dedicated scouting units. Of all of these, I like the T-70 the best, because at least there is some skill required to get it some vet and move it around to scout effectively.

But really what's lacking is a dedicated scout -- a fragile unit that can cloak and scout the map at risk of being revealed. A unit that requires multitasking micro skill and cunning strategy to gain important intel. I would so love for all those press-a-button-for-maphacks to be nerfed and some real scouting units added. Remember the cloaked PE ketten from COH1? The snipers on hold fire behind the lines? The rare insanely micro'd vetted American jeep? I really miss those tactics in COH2. It's like a whole fantastic aspect of RTS is just gone.

I think you get at an under mentioned weakness of the game. GJ.

But please, no invisible kettens! That those things could scout, move quickly, and detect mines for themselves, all while cloaked, made them just the kind of unit you described in your first paragraph, too powerful as a scout with too little counterplay.