The USF has only two non RNG and non doctrinal options for countering snipers in the early to midgame: flanking with their high DPS infantry, and the M20. While the Sniper is a balanced and solid choice vs Soviets and UKF that has strengths and weaknesses dependent on the opponents strat and the map, building Snipers vs USF is pretty much a choice with little trade off. Using the Sniper successfully against USF also takes less micro than the other match ups.
Nerfing the sniper (except maybe vet 1, which isn't the issue anyway) is off the table because it performs in a balanced way against UKF and Soviet. The issue is the American's lack of strengths regarding killing the thing. The USF have:
-high DPS infantry that bleed can flank the sniper: past 6-7 min this becomes impossible
-can rush M20 which is a sniper counter: past 6-7 min this becomes impossible
-can rely on pack howie RNG bombs
-can use smoke to avoid sniper fire.
While the above strengths in a vacuum seem pretty good, compare to Soviet:
-Clowncar and Scout Car
-Cons are cheap and have Oorah
-Can counter snipe with a 2 man sniper
-Mortar RNG
-Can reveal sniper with flares from mortar and sniper
-T70>Sniper
And now UKF:
-UC can deter Sniper
-vet 1 Tommies with pyro package can spot sniper from far away
-can countersnipe
-Tommies high acc+alpha damage make them better at wiping retreating snipers
-RNG mortar pit
The options that the other two factions have against sniper play are both more abundant and more effective: the nondoctrinal USF should have more anti-Sniper countermeasures, to promote a less stale USF vs Ost meta of whack a mole with a rushed m20 or Stuart.
Ideas in the form of simple tweaks:
Fold AT nades into grenade package, take frags out and make em come when T1 or T2 is teched. Vet 1 ability is now HTD, where mandatory 10 second activation where squad is immune to long range sniper fire (and bullets in general) but can't move at all.
OR
Using target tables make the M1 Garand, carbine, etc be more accurate only vs the Sniper, this way other match ups are unchanged but USF can pressure sniper with solid infantry play more.
OR
Buff the recon abilities on the Stuart or M20
OR
Give .50 Cal a Blinding Tracer Fire vet 1 ability that loads up bright tracer rounds and stuns all infantry while illuminating cloaked units for 45 seconds.
OR
Make Volley Fire do bonus suppression only vs the Sniper, meaning you could pin it in place quickly with REs while doing very little actual damage.
USF vs Ost Sniper situation is poor
10 Jan 2016, 23:42 PM
#1
Posts: 1891
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Jan 2016, 00:11 AM
#2
Posts: 1930
lower sniper hp to 80. that 2 hp is actually enough to save the british and german sniper from certain death on numerous occasion.
11 Jan 2016, 00:15 AM
#3
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
lower sniper hp to 80. that 2 hp is actually enough to save the british and german sniper from certain death on numerous occasion.
I doubt they'll do that for either ever. I can't really disagree with the thought behind it either - sure, it's silly watching them survive direct mortar and rocket artillery shells, but losing these units in one hit to RNG is something we're better off without.
11 Jan 2016, 00:18 AM
#4
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
lower sniper hp to 80. that 2 hp is actually enough to save the british and german sniper from certain death on numerous occasion.
Increase received accuracy for nearly the same effect.
11 Jan 2016, 00:21 AM
#5
1 
Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
lower sniper hp to 80. that 2 hp is actually enough to save the british and german sniper from certain death on numerous occasion.
That is literally the point of 82 health, to survive direct mortar and explosive hits with 2 health left.
Tobis "Complete Throw"
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
11 Jan 2016, 00:29 AM
#6
Posts: 1891
I think Ost sniper is fine but USFs ability to counter is weak, nerfing recieved acc would mean a soviet player could just kill a sniper by A-moving guards or cons
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Jan 2016, 03:27 AM
#7
Posts: 253
Ideas in the form of simple tweaks:
Fold AT nades into grenade package, take frags out and make em come when T1 or T2 is teched. Vet 1 ability is now HTD, where mandatory 10 second activation where squad is immune to long range sniper fire (and bullets in general) but can't move at all.
?!?!?!??! bulletproof? How does this help kill snipers? what about trading victory points late in the game? Are people just going to make park their invulnerable riflemen on victory points and get away with it?
OR
Using target tables make the M1 Garand, carbine, etc be more accurate only vs the Sniper, this way other match ups are unchanged but USF can pressure sniper with solid infantry play more.
This idea is the only one that helps. What if Ost snipers didn't get any Def bonuse while retreating? Hell lets take this a step further and say what if snipers had INCREASED received acc while retreating? this means Flanked snipers are guaranteed kills without counterplay,
Buff the recon abilities on the Stuart or M20
still gets fausted. Snipers played correctly are never alone, unless on a CS mission
OR
Give .50 Cal a Blinding Tracer Fire vet 1 ability that loads up bright tracer rounds and stuns all infantry while illuminating cloaked units for 45 seconds.
Stun infantry? on a machine gun? I dont see how this helps kill OST snipers either, all I see is a broken unit on par with Leigs and packs the month they had suppression.
Make Volley Fire do bonus suppression only vs the Sniper, meaning you could pin it in place quickly with REs while doing very little actual damage.
Tell me if im wrong, but RE doesn't have above average range, and I dont see how you could use this ability on a cloaked unit.
11 Jan 2016, 03:45 AM
#8
Posts: 1891
The first idea is pretty poor lol.
But the point in buffing light vehicle sight is so its easier to maneuver around the sniper, and the hypothetical HMG ability would be useful when Ost pushes supported by sniper.
The volley fire idea would go like this: sniper fires, you quickly use volley fire and the sniper is instantly pinned and has to retreat.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Jan 2016, 04:20 AM
#10
4 Posts: 444
Make airborne pathfinders spawn out of buildings, give them lingering cloak after leaving cover, replace vet with something else. Make it so incindinary rounds don't bypass reloading time.
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11 Jan 2016, 05:00 AM
#11
Posts: 1891
Make airborne pathfinders spawn out of buildings, give them lingering cloak after leaving cover, replace vet with something else. Make it so incindinary rounds don't bypass reloading time.
I like the idea.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Jan 2016, 05:44 AM
#12
Posts: 174
Did you see the ESL final today where Price built 3 OST Snipers that did nothing against Spacehamster as USF?
The M20 + M5 Quad AA Halftrack seems to negate Snipers entirely. Alternatively you could go w/ M20 + the LT Halftrack. Or build the M8 Greyhound from Recon or multiple WC51 from Mechanized.
While I think the OST Sniper needs a ROF nerf and that "whack a mole" as you put it isn't really great for gameplay, I think you're exaggerating USF helplessness against the Sniper a bit. DevM says it in his USF w/o tears guide that you need to shift from the usual USF infantry heavy play to an army that relies hugely on light vehicles. Multiple vehicles from LT + Captain and/or call-ins (M5 Quad, M8 Greyhound, WC51) seems like a given.
Granted killing the guy late in the game is a lot harder.
The M20 + M5 Quad AA Halftrack seems to negate Snipers entirely. Alternatively you could go w/ M20 + the LT Halftrack. Or build the M8 Greyhound from Recon or multiple WC51 from Mechanized.
While I think the OST Sniper needs a ROF nerf and that "whack a mole" as you put it isn't really great for gameplay, I think you're exaggerating USF helplessness against the Sniper a bit. DevM says it in his USF w/o tears guide that you need to shift from the usual USF infantry heavy play to an army that relies hugely on light vehicles. Multiple vehicles from LT + Captain and/or call-ins (M5 Quad, M8 Greyhound, WC51) seems like a given.
Granted killing the guy late in the game is a lot harder.
11 Jan 2016, 06:18 AM
#13
Posts: 320
I was in a 2v2 game in crossing in the woods. His Ostheer sniper had 100+ kills by the end of it, true story. I wish I could of killed that sniper as USF.
I also wished I saved the replay....
I also wished I saved the replay....
11 Jan 2016, 06:56 AM
#14
Posts: 1891
Did you see the ESL final today where Price built 3 OST Snipers that did nothing against Spacehamster as USF?
The M20 + M5 Quad AA Halftrack seems to negate Snipers entirely. Alternatively you could go w/ M20 + the LT Halftrack. Or build the M8 Greyhound from Recon or multiple WC51 from Mechanized.
While I think the OST Sniper needs a ROF nerf and that "whack a mole" as you put it isn't really great for gameplay, I think you're exaggerating USF helplessness against the Sniper a bit. DevM says it in his USF w/o tears guide that you need to shift from the usual USF infantry heavy play to an army that relies hugely on light vehicles. Multiple vehicles from LT + Captain and/or call-ins (M5 Quad, M8 Greyhound, WC51) seems like a given.
Granted killing the guy late in the game is a lot harder.
The extent to the USFs struggle is really map dependent. Anyways, the fact that one unit forces a player to completely convert their army comp. or switch to a crappy commander that compromises lategame shows that it's presently not good. Thank you for the suggestion though, I saw parts of the game and a heavy vehicle style seems good.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Jan 2016, 07:51 AM
#15
Posts: 708 | Subs: 1
USf at least have M20, ukf have nothing. Bren carrier have poor mobility and acceleration, one panzerfaust and it's over.
11 Jan 2016, 08:18 AM
#16
Posts: 1891
UKF can countersnipe
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Jan 2016, 11:40 AM
#17
Posts: 708 | Subs: 1
11 Jan 2016, 11:53 AM
#18
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
USA cries on ostheer sniper? that's new, despite the fact the USA has free tech unit (captain or lieutenant with free zooks/Bar) and can get M20 in 4 minutes where Ostheer has zero counter to that in early and USA rifleman overwhelms grens in early and with Bars they are like terminators you still want USA to get some buffs?
11 Jan 2016, 12:23 PM
#19
4 Posts: 444
USA cries on ostheer sniper? that's new, despite the fact the USA has free tech unit (captain or lieutenant with free zooks/Bar) and can get M20 in 4 minutes where Ostheer has zero counter to that in early and USA rifleman overwhelms grens in early and with Bars they are like terminators you still want USA to get some buffs?
Except the 222, pak, fausts, PG shrecks, tellers, half track PG shreck call in and Puma call in.
That's alot more options compared to the USF options vs the sniper. And how are the free squads even a positive thing, they're just extra bleed vs the snipers imo.
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11 Jan 2016, 12:35 PM
#20
Posts: 498
I was in a 2v2 game in crossing in the woods. His Ostheer sniper had 100+ kills by the end of it, true story. I wish I could of killed that sniper as USF.
I also wished I saved the replay....
That might have been me, a while back got 120 something kills on Crossing in the Woods with snipers
But to the actual topic, USF is weak against the sniper but smart play will be able to negate the bleed, sometimes well placed mines will get the sniper but this requires a lot of planning and knowledge about your opponents sniper micro (works well for all three factions)
I haven't played usf in a long time but as ostheer I have played a lot, especially 2v2s, usually my sniper dies if there's a single opening in the defensive line that allows the M20/Sturat to break through and base rush to get the sniper, this is a huuuge risk and usually leads to the loss of the light vehicle
If the sniper is well covered with mines on possible openings, mgs to stop inf and Paks to deal with tanks, the sniper is almost immortal, I've had multiple game in which I've gotten 100+ kills with double sniper against USF in 2v2, especially double usf.
Something needs to be done about it, especially from 2v2 perspective
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"Lefh is love, Lefh is life" Festung Support for the winFI
In game know as Törttö ᶠᶸᶜᵏᵧₒᵤ
Best rank 1v1 - 33 Soviets, 2v2 - 1 Ostheer RT
usf okw soviets ostheer"Lefh is love, Lefh is life" Festung Support for the win
FIIn game know as Törttö ᶠᶸᶜᵏᵧₒᵤ
Best rank 1v1 - 33 Soviets, 2v2 - 1 Ostheer RT
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