Enough is enough, fix the Rifle blobs

i should have worded that a bit more carefully. but i was surprised that that the zooks performed on par with the shreks against heavies. especially jarring considering the zook is much better against medium tanks then the shreks.

Yeah I was too. Although you still basically need 2 zooks to match 1 schrek, the cost nearly matches up when talking about volks upgrade, 100 muni vs 90. However with pgrens, it's more cost effective for sure, but pgren blobs aren't really a concern here.

and i said it has been proven that zooks in fact can do decent damage to even the kt and is on par with the shrek.

While those videos showed that many exaggerate when it comes to the bazooka's (lack of) effectiveness, and that they in fact can hurt heavier axis vehicles, they did in no way prove that they are on par with the schrek. Comparing different units/weapons in a vacuum may be interesting and give you an idea how effective they can be, but it's ignoring way to many variables to produce a realistic comparison.

That video was way an outlier, in the sense that in this case the RNG was really in favor of the Rifle squads.

KT: 1280HP 375 frontal armor
Zook: 80dmg 130/110 pen
Pen to kill: 16
Avg ttk: 50 hits
On vid: 36 hits

We could make more vids, and on some cases it would take double the amount or some lucky guy would kill the KT on just 2 volleys.

The big difference between zook and shrecks is the burst damage. No one is gonna sit and eat constant damage from handheld AT. The most important thing comes from the damage from the first or 2nd volley.

The big difference between zook and shrecks is the burst damage. No one is gonna sit and eat constant damage from handheld AT. The most important thing comes from the damage from the first or 2nd volley.

...and if anyone needs it spelled out for them, Schrecks tend to have more of that which will generally make them more effective.

That video was way an outlier, in the sense that in this case the RNG was really in favor of the Rifle squads.

KT: 1280HP 375 frontal armor
Zook: 80dmg 130/110 pen
Pen to kill: 16
Avg ttk: 50 hits
On vid: 36 hits

We could make more vids, and on some cases it would take double the amount or some lucky guy would kill the KT on just 2 volleys.

The big difference between zook and shrecks is the burst damage. No one is gonna sit and eat constant damage from handheld AT. The most important thing comes from the damage from the first or 2nd volley.

Not that I disagree with the point you made, but your math is incorrect.

What you're not taking into account in your 50 hits average is deflection damage, which zooks do.

In reality, the average is closer to 34 when you take into account deflection damage. You can see it in the video if you look closely on the king tiger. I activated the health monitor, so you'll see little damage number pop up when the king tiger gets hit. please note that hits that occur at around the same time will be added together. So you'll see 20s pop up ( which is deflection damage ) or maybe a 100 which would be 1 hit and 1 deflection.

I re-rewatched the video and I counted 9 penetrating hits and 26 deflections, plus the final hit which didn't show a number because the tank died.

If you do the math 9 + 80 + 26 * 20 = 1240, so it didn't really matter what the last hit was I guess, even if it deflected it would have finished it off.

Now since they were at max range, 110/375 = 29.3%

now we do 9 pens/ (26 + 9 ) = 25.7% of the shots were penetrating. Minus the final hit which was inconclusive but didn't matter because even a single deflection would have finished it off. So in fact, this video's RNG favored the king tiger.

Let's say for the sake of argument, the final hit penetrated. That's 10/37 = 27% RNG still favored the king tiger.

But all your other points I agree with.

Atleast i have popcap issue with this. After the last patch i am constantly spamming bunkers to get soft retreat points that suppress because i cannot popcap afford more than 2 mg.

Vickers is a LOT better than mg42 if you micro it. (ok ok ok Mg42 is a lot better when enemy blobs so hard that they stomp each others feet)

Last 2vs2 game i had against 2 usf players... 20 minutes in game they had 8+6 rifleman squads... Only way to damage them seemed to force retreat to minefield with mg42 and mortars...

You have popcap issues? What is causing that?

I can never vouch for the Vickers, the MG42 is too beautiful. Only downside is the setup time but if you prepare for a fight you'd be fine.

Personally I feel that mortars don't counter blobs, like ever.

Snip

I forgot about the deflection damage. It's 0.25 so 20dmg per hit.

Yeah, that completely changes the math. My bad here.
The final hit was a penetration as a deflection would had deal 1260dmg total.

So yeah, on average, you need 36 zooks to kill a KT. What i found amusing is that luckily for those Rifles they survive with 2 models almost till the end so they didn't lost too much damage against the KT.

The difference is that Rifles with 2 zooks give up much of their AI abilities, and unless you back them up with expensive Airborne that means US's major advantage (superior infantry firepower) is nullified. So while on paper a zook blob can put the hurt on a KT, in effet it doesn't work very well since it has lower alpha damage than shrecks, is locked behind tech, and Volks are still able to do decent AI damage with their rifles and can be backed up by non-doctrinal elite infantry.

Sustained DPS of handheld AT is not the most useful of statistics for them too. Unless the tank was snared or badly microed, it's almost never going to take more than one volley anyway.

And of course, OKW's major advantage is not infantry, but armor. So long as they have the PIV, Luchs, Panther (especially Command) and KT, they can afford shrecked Volks. Unless a US player is very good with their squishy Shermans, relying on armor for AI is a more difficult prospect.

I forgot about the deflection damage. It's 0.25 so 20dmg per hit.

Yeah, that completely changes the math. My bad here.
The final hit was a penetration as a deflection would had deal 1260dmg total.

So yeah, on average, you need 36 zooks to kill a KT. What i found amusing is that luckily for those Rifles they survive with 2 models almost till the end so they didn't lost too much damage against the KT.

Ah yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought the damage was at 1240 instead of 1260 by the end.


Yeah, that was pretty convenient for the rifles in this vid for sure. Had the KT managed to wipe a squad, probably a different outcome entirely.

Such a zooks blob can effectively counter a panther or a P IV, forcing it to scram, there is absolutely no doubt about it. If noob player, then he will not reverse and eventualy lose his P IV / Panther. If surprised from the flank, I would say that chances for that P IV / Panther being destroyed are growing exponentially. Tanks won't walk the field alone though, but then neither zook blobs. And we can add alot of components: some fusies / volks around the OKW tank that will engage the zook blob. A hmg behind the zook blob that will supress these fusies / volks. And so on. Everything is situational.

But the idea that I cached here, and that I already knew, is that zook blobs are as effective vs Axis mediums as shreck blobs are vs Allied mediums. Thing is that volks don't get any upgrade but shrecks, so a shreck blob will be more probable than a zook blob. Nevertheless a zook blob, because of that, is a nasty surprise and by no meaning less effective.

This is a parody thread, isn't it?

exactly my thought

Generally speaking,this game has been a blob favor game.Noob blob is rewarded while combined arms are punished.The simplie instance is USF vs Wehr.Building mortar+hmg+grens+AT is stupid against US because rifle blobs ignore the combined army.They can just noob walk through the entire Wehr combined army.The wehr player needs much high skills to beat the rifle blobs.Even grens cost 30 per models makes me lol.

No fun to play against US rifle noob blobs now.Just BORING enough! If there's another better game I will quit playing this game immediately. I have played for 3000+ hours but it's time to leave this blob boring games...

Even grens cost 30 per models makes me lol.

Maybe this is actualy the problem.

Maybe this is actually the problem.

Grens cost 240 and reinforce fully for 90mp, which is 37% of total squads value.

Rifles cost 280 and reinforce fully for 112mp, which is 40% of squads total value.

Cons cost 240 and reinforce fully for 100mp, which is 42% of squads total value.

Moreover, grens have 0.91 rec acc while rifles are little below 1 and cons little above 1.

You're right, grens are too cheap to reinforce.

I was curious about zooks blob compare to schreck blob.
I tried 5 zooks/schrecks vs KT and IS2.

It took 12secs for Volks to kill IS2 frontally.
It took 43secs for Rifles to kill KT fontally.

Just sayin.

You have popcap issues? What is causing that?

Enemy blobs. Usually have it only on OST. Only faction that makes me thing "oh no i cannot build that to counter it/them because then i don't have enough cap for this or that in the late game." Maybe i just have too big conservation of my own units...

I can never vouch for the Vickers, the MG42 is too beautiful. Only downside is the setup time but if you prepare for a fight you'd be fine.

At the point where MG42 stops to reload, you are still clicking enemy units onebyone to suppress them with vickers...
First time when i kill vickers with lone grenadier squad in green cover without upgrades, like you can with IS and even nearly with rifleman (rifleman can nearly kill 3 models before its suppressed)...

Personally I feel that mortars don't counter blobs, like ever.

It kills models, it usually manage to hit 1-3 times before they retreat from suppression.

Maybe this is actualy the problem.

No it's not. Grens are worth every penny of their 240 mp cost. They lose to rifles, obviously because of the price difference, but that's why MG42s and snipers are a thing. I also found that G43 grens equalize the playing field to a fairly significant degree, as do a PGren squad for soft defense against rushes and grenades. I never felt I lacked the tools for blob counter as Ostheer unless it really hit critical mass, and then there's P4s and Pwerfers to even the odds.